5e Capping AC and to hit

UngeheuerLich · Apr 18, 2019

S'mon said:
I do use 1 week long rests which helps with number of encounters. But level 20 characters have a ton of spell slots. It is very easy to make a level 20 pc with AC in the 30s even before epic boons, while monster to hit caps out around +19. I don't mind pcs min maxing for AC but I think a tarrasque should still have a chance to hit them.

You need AC 39 to be unhittable except dor a critical hit against attack bonus +19...

But as you state: you use exceptional stats for PCs. You should modify your monsters accordingly. Or actually you needn't. Your characters are epic and a single tarrasque is just a speed bump. They fight the tarrasque's masters.

Oofta · Apr 18, 2019

Are we talking level 20 PCs or epic level PCs that are capped at level 20 but are still advancing?

Because that's part of my confusion then. Barring a few exceptions (barbarians can get to 24 con at level 20 IIRC), everybody is limited to stats of 20 at level 20 without magic.

But if you're playing with truly epic characters, then sorry for my confusion. But as [MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION] said, at those levels nothing in the MM is going to be much of a threat. Maybe a tarrasque swarm would be appropriate.

After all at that level are you really even playing D&D any more or a fantasy superheroes game? Nothing wrong with it, just ignore my advice and do what makes sense to you and what's best for your campaign. Probably good advice anyway.

S'mon · Apr 18, 2019

Oofta said:
Well, sky high stats will give you sky high numbers. I'm not even going to guess how someone got a 30 strength (even belts cap out at 29) or a con 28.

Which is fine. But my recommendation would be that if you play a gonzo game, expect gonzo results and adjust monsters accordingly. You also may have been making some wrong assumptions given the basis of 5E.

Not that anything you've done is wrong, it's just that it seems to me like you've kind of broken the game without adjusting the other side of the equation.

Game isn't broken - just looking to the future. A lot of the enemies imc are converted from the Pathfinder stats and can work out pretty nasty in 5e, which has lower default magic assumptions.

Oofta · Apr 18, 2019

S'mon said:
Game isn't broken - just looking to the future. A lot of the enemies imc are converted from the Pathfinder stats and can work out pretty nasty in 5e, which has lower default magic assumptions.

Fair enough, as long as you don't expect the MM to work out of the box.

S'mon · Apr 18, 2019

Oofta said:
Are we talking level 20 PCs or epic level PCs that are capped at level 20 but are still advancing?

Because that's part of my confusion then. Barring a few exceptions (barbarians can get to 24 con at level 20 IIRC), everybody is limited to stats of 20 at level 20 without magic.

But if you're playing with truly epic characters, then sorry for my confusion. But as [MENTION=59057]UngeheuerLich[/MENTION] said, at those levels nothing in the MM is going to be much of a threat. Maybe a tarrasque swarm would be appropriate.

After all at that level are you really even playing D&D any more or a fantasy superheroes game? Nothing wrong with it, just ignore my advice and do what makes sense to you and what's best for your campaign. Probably good advice anyway.

I use a version of the 5e DMG epic progression rules. I'm a bit stingier than what they advise but it can still result in powerful characters. Definitely not tarrasque as speedbump though, more ancient dragon is a tough fight for most solo PCs. So about the equivalent of 13th level in 1e.

In Pathfinder a min maxed level 14 party was a lot more powerful than the epic-20 5e PCs, I definitely enjoy 5e's lower power curve.

Fantasy superheroes - definitely; my 4e game felt like fantasy superheroes too. I like superhero genre so no problem with that.

Shiroiken · Apr 18, 2019

Even when I ran a campaign to 18th level, I never had a PC with higher than AC: 27 (that was after a shield spell). If you don't give out a lot of +X armor, it becomes much less of a concern, since the players can only go so far on their own (Plate/Shield/Defense Fighting Style/Shield spell can put you to 26, for example). The coolest armor I gave out was Efreet Chain, which is only AC 19 (equivalent to Plate +1 AC-wise), and no one complained. Try to focus on giving out magic items with neat abilities, rather than just flat bonuses, and you'll find players appreciate them more.

Final note: NEVER EVER give out a +x shield! The ability to stack that bonus on existing armor bonus is how you get some ridiculous ACs. Also, never assume the party will give the magic item to the player you intend; the wizard might be who you wanted to get the Ring of Protection, but that could easily become a +1 AC for the tanky fighter.

S'mon · Apr 18, 2019

Oofta said:
Fair enough, as long as you don't expect the MM to work out of the box.

MM still works pretty well so far but I can see future problems if I don't cap AC. Plenty of critters with +13 or +15 to hit. My son's PC got beat up by 3 fire giants not long ago.

GreyLord · Apr 19, 2019

Oofta said:
Well, sky high stats will give you sky high numbers. I'm not even going to guess how someone got a 30 strength (even belts cap out at 29) or a con 28.

Which is fine. But my recommendation would be that if you play a gonzo game, expect gonzo results and adjust monsters accordingly. You also may have been making some wrong assumptions given the basis of 5E.

Not that anything you've done is wrong, it's just that it seems to me like you've kind of broken the game without adjusting the other side of the equation.

As per the DMG, once you are over level 20 (aka...level 20 but still gaining XP) if using epic boons characters can instead choose to increase their stats OVER the maximum of 20 that characters below epic have. Thus, one that is in epic can increase their ability scores up to 30. However, there are several boons which are far more beneficial than just having a 30 stat.

GreyLord · Apr 19, 2019

30 DEX (+10), 30 WIS (+10) gives an epic Monk 30 AC right there.

Or 30 DEX (+10), +3 Studded Leather (12+3), and a +3 Shield (+2 and +3) gives a Fighter 30 AC.

Not hard to hit AC 30 in epic with the right focuses.

With other things you can go over it.

Even at lower level it is possible to get rather high AC's when incorporating Magic Items

TallIan · Apr 19, 2019

GreyLord said:
30 DEX (+10), 30 WIS (+10) gives an epic Monk 30 AC right there.

Or 30 DEX (+10), +3 Studded Leather (12+3), and a +3 Shield (+2 and +3) gives a Fighter 30 AC.

Not hard to hit AC 30 in epic with the right focuses.

That means he's taken 10 Epic level progressions for a total of 300 000 XP, enough to get a character to 18th (almost to 19th) level. I think that if someone has focused that much on one aspect of the game they deserve to get something no one else can hope to.

Consider how good some of those Epic Boons are, there are quite a few that are better than +1 ability mod.

With other things you can go over it.

Even at lower level it is possible to get rather high AC's when incorporating Magic Items

IMO ruling that +x to armour (or to hit) are similar effects and can't stack, so if you have +3 armour; +3 shield and +1 ring, you only get +3. This will keep the an even curve to increasing armour through all levels rather that clipping AC at the very top.