Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

Maxperson · May 28, 2019

pemerton said:
When the dictionary says that literature means the As, and especially the As that are also Bs, it is telling us that the word "literature" is used to mean A, but also, and especially, is used to mean the As that are Bs. There would be no point to including that second element of the definition if, in fact, there was no such distinctive and typical pattern of usage. In this case, one doesn't need to refer to a dictionary to make the point - it's not an obsecure one. If someone says, for instance, that s/he studies literature, I think most of us would assume that cookbooks and railway guides and stereo installation instructions are not on the syllabus. (Contrast if she said that she studies communication, in which case those things might well be candidate objects of study.)

What it also doesn't do, is exclude A. The use of especially still leaves A as a what literature means. Just yesterday we a bunch of new furniture arrived. My wife said, "We're going to need to watch the dogs. They like to spray to mark territory." I responded, "Yep. They do like to spray, especially the white one." To believe you guys, my response meant that our black dog suddenly doesn't mark any longer. The especially doesn't work that way. It just points out one aspect of the set, in this case spraying and in the above case literature, and call it out as greater.

Maxperson · May 28, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
And I think this is fine. If you find the game to be a literary endeavor in this way, and if you are a GM in the style of Matt Mercer, then that is what you should do. I am not saying it can't be these things. All I am saying is it does not have to be these things. Matt Mercer's style of GMing isn't the only way, or the best way: it is just one way to it. I personally don't like running games the way he does and I don't like utilizing the kinds of descriptions he uses. I just don't value woodcraft because I am speaking everyday plain English to my players and not trying to affect a style. I am talking in my natural voice. These are two very different approaches to play.

Try an experiment the next time you play. Let the players know that they meet a sex #2 race #2 class #12 that holds an object #1 and wears object number #2, object #3, and object #4. See if they engage as well as if you let them know that they meet a female elven wizard, holding a staff and wearing a robe, 2 rings and some slippers.

If they prefer the latter and if you use the latter typically when describing things, wordcraft is both preferred and used.

Aldarc · May 28, 2019

Maxperson said:
Try an experiment the next time you play. Let the players know that they meet a sex #2 race #2 class #12 that holds an object #1 and wears object number #2, object #3, and object #4. See if they engage as well as if you let them know that they meet a female elven wizard, holding a staff and wearing a robe, 2 rings and some slippers.

If they prefer the latter and if you use the latter typically when describing things, wordcraft is both preferred and used.

I'm not sure if that is a good experiment given how that does not necessarily represents the natural conversational language that Bedrockgames prefers.

Maxperson · May 28, 2019

Aldarc said:
I'm not sure if that is a good experiment given how that does not necessarily represents the natural conversational language that Bedrockgames prefers.

The point is, his natural conversational language is still wordcraft. He's picking and choosing words that work better than other words. Even in natural conversation, a person will use word A over B or C, because it fits better with what he is trying to say. It may not be with literary improvement in mind, but it's still being done.

Bedrockgames · May 28, 2019

Maxperson said:
Try an experiment the next time you play. Let the players know that they meet a sex #2 race #2 class #12 that holds an object #1 and wears object number #2, object #3, and object #4. See if they engage as well as if you let them know that they meet a female elven wizard, holding a staff and wearing a robe, 2 rings and some slippers.

If they prefer the latter and if you use the latter typically when describing things, wordcraft is both preferred and used.

This is a false choice and it takes things to an absurd level. We are not arguing for this kind of description. We are saying we don’t want Matt Mercer like wordcraft. You are turning a spectrum into s binary and only allowing for the extreme ends. Look, I don’t know how much more clear I can be: I don’t talk like Matt Mercer in my games and I don’t want to. Word craft just isn’t something I put effort into. I communicate naturally in a casual way. I can understand what you like and accept you play that way. I really don’t know why it is so difficult for you to understand and accept how I approach the game.

Bedrockgames · May 28, 2019

Maxperson said:
The point is, his natural conversational language is still wordcraft. He's picking and choosing words that work better than other words. Even in natural conversation, a person will use word A over B or C, because it fits better with what he is trying to say. It may not be with literary improvement in mind, but it's still being done.

You are pulling the same word games as before yo make something you value inescapable and force your view if RPGs on others.

Aldarc · May 28, 2019

Maxperson said:
The point is, his natural conversational language is still wordcraft. He's picking and choosing words that work better than other words. Even in natural conversation, a person will use word A over B or C, because it fits better with what he is trying to say. It may not be with literary improvement in mind, but it's still being done.

I think that sort of equivocation is misrepresenting what seems to be meant by "wordcraft" in this thread.

Maxperson · May 28, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
This is a false choice and it takes things to an absurd level. We are not arguing for this kind of description. We are saying we don’t want Matt Mercer like wordcraft. You are turning a spectrum into s binary and only allowing for the extreme ends. Look, I don’t know how much more clear I can be: I don’t talk like Matt Mercer in my games and I don’t want to.

The only binary here is you. To suggest that in order to be engaging in wordcraft you have to be like Mercer is binary. Wordcraft is on a sliding scale.

Word craft just isn’t something I put effort into. I communicate naturally in a casual way.

Sure, and in casual conversation, people still pick and choose words, which is engaging in wordcraft. Even if you don't put effort into it, you are engaging in it.

I can understand what you like and accept you play that way. I really don’t know why it is so difficult for you to understand and accept how I approach the game.

I do understand and accept it. Nothing I've said has indicated otherwise. I just think you are unaware that despite the lack of care and effort, you are still engaging in wordcraft to a degree.

Just look at my example above. My wife and I were having a normal conversation about our dogs. We chose the word spray. We could have chosen spotting, or marking, or peeing, but we didn't. We didn't put any particular effort into it, and we didn't particularly care, but we did choose one word over the others and use it, because that's what people do in conversations. We still used wordcraft, despite the lack of effort and care.

Maxperson · May 28, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
You are pulling the same word games as before yo make something you value inescapable and force your view if RPGs on others.

LOL I assure you, that was just normal conversational language, without an particular care or effort. If I was "pulling word games"(wordcraft) with that normal conversation, then you do it as well with your normal conversational language.

lowkey13 · May 28, 2019

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Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

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