Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

hawkeyefan

Legend
*If this is too subtle, how about this?
It is my VIEW that my way of playing is correct, and that the way you play is terrible and stupid.

See? It's just a view.

Ah....well I'd have to see where that was said in the posts, because I didn't see any such negativity in the OP or related posts. Things got a little terse during the debate on definitions and all that, but everyone seems to have made it through unscathed.

Or at least, almost everyone...you'll have to excuse me while I go and weep uncontrollably, curled into the fetal position in my shower.
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
At the risk of repeating myself from the very beginning of the the thread-

First, the OP was saying something negative about other playstyles by definition. If he hadn't been, then people wouldn't have reacted the way they did. Notice that when Hussar tried to agree with him, he reiterated his thesis statement by asserting the strong version (that RPGs have a point, and he was telling us what the point was). That you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. It's not your ox being gored.

I didn't see it as a negative comment on other playstyles. But maybe you have a point in that it's not my ox. Although, I use plenty of narration and description in my play, so I don't think of it as a case where it doesn't pertain to me.


But to your other point- as already discussed:

Certain genres of TTRPGs are depending on performance and/or the use of narrative to evoke emotion.*

An easy example is Paranoia, and other games that use humor.

Another easy example is any type of LARPing.

Moving on, we have diceless systems (Amber, for example) and other RPGs that depend heavily on narrative and/or performance.

Then, we have other genres- horror, for example. Call of Cthulhu is an example of a game where narrative matters a great deal.

I think Call of Cthulhu is a great example. I would expect most games of it would lean heavily on mood, and that one of the ways mood would be established would be through description, and choice of narration, and tone, and so on.

But do you think that this is a question of style over substance?

Do you think that you can achieve an engaging Call of Cthulhu session without leaning heavily on these things?


From there, we can look at thematic choices within a game. For example, some groups might be drawn to Ravenloft, or Dark Sun, within D&D because these particular settings allow for more narrative and/or performance than "traditional" D&D.

What has been aggravating is that, for some of us, performance and narration matters; both as DMs and as players. In fact, the emergent quality of the game is improved by the component abilities of both the DM and the players. To see that level of engagement that some of us enjoy reduced to "funny voices" as we have repeatedly seen throughout this thread is the type of hostile denigration that is not productive.

The "funny voices" comments I can see as being annoying. I don't think all of them were meant that way so much as they were simply a shorthand for "performance", but I can see how repeated use of that kind of phrase would be annoying.


Put another way; it is inarguable that RPGs can use different techniques to evoke emotion and engagement than other media; but they also share techniques as well. To use an example I used hundreds of comments ago- you can't use a jump scare in a book, and you can't use the repetition of words to evoke fear in a movie; but just because movies and books are different doesn't mean that they don't share some commonalities when it comes to creating tension and fear, and no one would credibly argue, "You can only use JUMP SCARES in movies. That's it. Because they are different." By the same token, there are commonalities between books, movies, video games, and RPGs when it comes to creating a sense of horror, dread, and fear.

I agree with this. Each media will have its own techniques, but there will also be a pool of techniques that are available to multiple media. I do think that RPGing is unique in that it is a game, and potentially open ended in that sense. Much of it is undetermined even as those who are participating are experiencing it. So is that element, the fact that it is a game, important?

If so, is it paramount?

Must the RPG engage the players in the way a game engages participants more than an RPG must engage an audience in the way other media do?

I feel like the game is more important to the performance. I don't think it must always be so, but I would tend to make that call.

Do you think that the performance is more important than the game?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Melf, the Erudite: "Although a double negative, in English, implies a positive meaning, there is no language in which a double positive makes a negative."

Hey, we should be feel lucky that language has at least that passing acquaintance with formal logic!

The best bit on double negatives comes from a film, The Lost Skeleton Returns Again. Unfortunately, it seems no clips of it come up on youtube using the obvious search terms I can think of.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But do you think that this is a question of style over substance?

That may be a false dichotomy.

Remember that Call of Cthulhu is a *horror* game. Can we agree that achieving some sensation of horror is one (possibly among many) implicit goal of play?

Things that achieve the goals of play are the substance, are they not?

Do you think that you can achieve an engaging Call of Cthulhu session without leaning heavily on these things?

Well, of course you can play Call of Cthulhu without these things. But I counter the question with a question - How likely are you to achieve horror without these things?

Same things goes with humor, for games like Paranoia, or Toon. Being *funny* is a significant part of the point of playing. Do you want to try to be funny without putting consideration to how you present the material?


If so, is it paramount?

Must the RPG engage the players in the way a game engages participants more than an RPG must engage an audience in the way other media do?

I feel like the game is more important to the performance. I don't think it must always be so, but I would tend to make that call.

Do you think that the performance is more important than the game?

I don't see a particular need to make the generalization, to be honest. We could speak about particular moments during play, when we could say that one perhaps should take precedence over the other. But, I don't at this point see much value to be found in proclaiming that, over play in general, one is (or should be) predominant. But, I'm game to hear some ideas.

What do we gain, in our consideration of our hobby, from proclaiming one over the other?
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
That isn't wordcraft
Er...how isn't it?

I mean, right now I'm engaging in wordcraft as I try to come up with appropriate words to type (and in the right sequence) in order to get my point across. Doubtless you'll do the same if-when you reply to this.

Same thing happens in conversation, though often at a more rapid pace and with less and sometimes no conscious effort. And for those speaking in a language not natively their own, much more conscious effort is involved until-unless complete fluency is attained.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Well, of course....it's all opinion. But do you have any examples to share? Is there a module or adventure book you can think of where the actual content is pretty bland, but is presented so well that playing the adventure is worthwhile?
In its writing? Not often. Maybe some WotC 4e modules such as Keep on the Shadowfell - the presentation in some of those make them seem like they'll play better than they actually do. (no I don't run 4e but I have converted several of its modules for my own game). B-10 Night's Dark Terror is another such - it reads much better than it plays, as I've twice now learned.

But I have seen the reverse: good content made bland (or much harder to use) by poor presentation. Some DCCRPG modules are like this for me - great ideas but the presentation (usually involving their terrible arthouse style of mapping) ruins it.

As presented at the table? Hells yeah. As a player I've been through many adventures where, in hindsight, an analyst would look back and think "You know, that was a fairly bland-and-boring adventure based only on what was in it" but in fact it was roaring fun to play through due in very large part to how it was presented by the DM and in much smaller part to what the players did with - or to - it.

I wouldn't call it a BS example. The two examples speak to the two things that were being compared in the OP. One makes more of an attempt to use evocative language to engage the players, and the second uses content (a man with an eyepatch) that will engage the players.

The fact that you think it's so skewed, to me, implies that you know which is more engaging. Content simply matters more.

I'm all for compelling description and evocative language and in painting a scene for players. But to me, that stuff is all dressing. The content is what's always going to matter the most.
My assumption - silly me - was that the underlying content would be the same in both examples and thus the comparison is merely one of how that content is presented and which presentation is more engaging.
 

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