Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

Imaro

Legend
The problem, I think, is that you, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], are presuming that the player at the table already has all the context he or she needs to play. That is certainly not guaranteed, which is what I showed with the Vengaurak example.

I think there are quite a few presumptions outside of assuming relevant context that are problematic in [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s argument. One that immediately springs to mind is the presumption that players will be more invested when the context is something they have a hand in. This assumes the players will be more invested in character connections vs discovery or exploration of the unknown...and for some players this just isn't true. I wouldn't argue that players participating in a West Marches campaign are any less invested or engaged around discovery and exploration of the world than a player who has had a hand in creating some part of the world and is engaged... it really again boils down to preferred playstyle, game type, etc... Yet [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] seems to only be considering those with his preferred style and type of game as opposed to the hobby as a whole.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
I think there are quite a few presumptions outside of assuming relevant context that are problematic in [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s argument. One that immediately springs to mind is the presumption that players will be more invested when the context is something they have a hand in. This assumes the players will be more invested in character connections vs discovery or exploration of the unknown...and for some players this just isn't true. I wouldn't argue that players participating in a West Marches campaign are any less invested or engaged around discovery and exploration of the world than a player who has had a hand in creating some part of the world and is engaged... it really again boils down to preferred playstyle, game type, etc... Yet [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] seems to only be considering those with his preferred style and type of game as opposed to the hobby as a whole.
I do agree with your point quite readily that players have different preferences in terms of engagement.

Though pemerton may indeed have the presumption in the bold, I'm not sure if his argument in this thread hinges on it. Pemerton's initial thesis in the OP, for example, is silent about whether the fiction that the players engage through play is something that they have an a priori hand in creating. When pemerton speaks on the emphasis in RPGs "on participation in the creation of a fiction that is structured through distinct player and GM roles," this seems more about the general process of creating fiction through play: i.e., when you play a TTRPG, the process of play creates new fiction. A West Marches style game would likewise create new fiction as the players decide which piece of fiction to engage and in the process generate new fiction through their collective choices. IMHO, a West Marches style game is predicated on the idea that players will "engage with and build on this fiction in ways that display the player's view of the fiction" since WM games require that players pro-actively engage the fiction, even if that only entails peeling back the fog-of-war on the map.

In my reading of the OP, pemerton does not believe that the "literary quality" (i.e. wordcraft) for the narration of situations performed by GMs (to which players respond) matters, or at least should be regarded as a secondary nature. Instead, pemerton appears to be arguing that what matters most is that the stakes of the fiction are understood such that players can properly perform their duties as players who participate in the fiction. And implicit in this argument is the idea that attempting a high literary quality of GM narration can risk relegating the players to function more as an "audience to a performance" by the GM rather than themselves being the primary participants of the fiction. I'm not necessarily sure if pemerton would word it in this way, but it's possible that his point here could be understood as a fear of when GM narration happens at the players for the sake of wordcraft itself rather than for the players to contextualize their participation in the fiction.

In sum: the contextualization of player choice within the fiction of TTRPG play - presuming (not so radically at all) that TTRPG gameplay is driven primarily by player-character choices - matters more than the quality of the narrated wordcraft of the fiction that a GM may supply to players.
 

Imaro

Legend
In sum: the contextualization of player choice within the fiction of TTRPG play - presuming (not so radically at all) that TTRPG gameplay is driven primarily by player-character choices - matters more than the quality of the narrated wordcraft of the fiction that a GM may supply to players.

Not if that narrated wordcraft of the fiction is their first/only exposure to and main basis for the choices being made.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Is this really the only point that you want to engage? That said, I'm not sure if I agree with that either, Imaro.

It's driving the choices which are in turn driving gameplay. As an example... an evocative description vs a bland (conversational) description can very much influence which of two sites said players want to explore in something like a West Marches game... how is this not just as important as the content? It's why billions are spent on researching and crafting the right advertising for a product vs just putting the product out and letting the "content" be the deciding factor.

I thought I was engaging with the main point of your post... if not what is it you are trying to discuss?
 

Aldarc

Legend
It's driving the choices which are in turn driving gameplay. As an example... an evocative description vs a bland (conversational) description can very much influence which of two sites said players want to explore in something like a West Marches game... how is this not just as important as the content? It's why billions are spent on researching and crafting the right advertising for a product vs just putting the product out and letting the "content" be the deciding factor.
It can (for some people) but I don't think that the quality of narrated wordcraft is fundamentally necessary to initiate a campaign. Companies hire advertisers to get people to buy the product. If people are already sitting down to play your TTRPG campaign, then they have already "bought the product" (i.e., playing the game). Whether or not they will continue playing is something else entirely, but reasons for why they may disengage will vary from person to person and table to table.
 

Imaro

Legend
It can (for some people) but I don't think that the quality of narrated wordcraft is fundamentally necessary to initiate a campaign. Companies hire advertisers to get people to buy the product. If people are already sitting down to play your TTRPG campaign, then they have already "bought the product" (i.e., playing the game). Whether or not they will continue playing is something else entirely, but reasons for why they may disengage will vary from person to person and table to table.

So again we are discussing a subset of players... we are excluding those "some people".

I also disagree that just because someone is sitting down to play your TTRPG campaign (which in and of itself implies more than one session) that they have already "bought the product" they are free to quit 2 mins into the session if it's not interesting to them. My whole point is your last sentence...reasons (including lack of interesting wordcraft for some people) for why people disengage will vary... so declaring one part of the game as unimportant automatically disregards players for whom that thing is important enough to make or break the game.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I take it back, Max -- do not explain fallacies, just keep using the titles. While that's a habit that indicates a lack of argumentative ability, better that than to remove doubt. I mean, while building your cases for the fallacies here, you completely missed the thrust of [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION]'s argument and actually helped him land it more solidly. That main thrust was at the gooey, shifting center of your argument where you keep saying the are GM specific functions but are very careful to not list them. You've mistaken sarcasm for fallacy.

At least when you were just tossing fallacy names out one may have imagined you'd followed along. Now, we know you didn't.

Sometimes I wonder if there's like a Sacha Baron Cohen kind of thing going on. At times, it seems the only explanation.
 

Aldarc

Legend
So again we are discussing a subset of players... we are excluding those "some people".

My whole point is your last sentence...reasons (including lack of interesting wordcraft for some people) for why people disengage will vary... so declaring one part of the game as unimportant automatically disregards players for whom that thing is important enough to make or break the game.
You may be seeing this differently than I am, but it seems to me at least that claiming that high quality wordcraft for GM narration is highly important for TTRPG gameplay is far more exclusionary of a statement than saying that it's not fundamentally necessary. And honestly there are many things that may break the game for people - especially recalling our past conversations on Fate points - that I am not sure if we should be bothered by the fact that some people will find the lack of high quality narration by the GM "game-breaking," which certainly seems more like an extreme case rather than the norm.
 

Imaro

Legend
You may be seeing this differently than I am, but it seems to me at least that claiming that high quality wordcraft for GM narration is highly important for TTRPG gameplay is far more exclusionary of a statement than saying that it's not fundamentally necessary. And honestly there are many things that may break the game for people - especially recalling our past conversations on Fate points - that I am not sure if we should be bothered by the fact that some people will find the lack of high quality narration by the GM "game-breaking," which certainly seems more like an extreme case rather than the norm.

How would attention to developing and using good or even exceptional wordcraft in a game be exclusionary?? No one said perfection has to be achieved, it's a scale, but totally disregarding it (in other words claiming even when performed at it's lowest bar or disregarded in full doesn't affect the game) is another matter all together that I just don't agree with.
 

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