Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

Bedrockgames · Jun 2, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
So what’s your point? That Microscope is not an RPG? Or that GMless RPGs don’t exist because players in Microscope share some responsibilities that would fall to the GM in other games?

I think one of the essential requirements of the role of GM is that it performs different functions from the rest of the participants; wouldn’t you agree?

I think his point is it still requires a human mind to adjudicate, even if that mind is being distributed across many players. It definitely creates a different feel, and I think at the very least, this is a subgenre of RPG that might strike a player of a more standard RPG is hard to grasp. But based on that description it still does seem to rely on human referees. I think most people would assume that role is separate from the other players. But it is certainly possible to do it in different ways. Even beyond system, going back to the 90s I've seen games with co-GMs, I've had a player take on the role of my villain NPC, and there are plenty of ways you could cut it up. These approaches are certainly not the norm. They definitely rely on a human to help expand the creative possibilities.

And again, exceptions don't break the rule. You can have games that are like RPGs in all kinds of ways, but deviate from a core feature. That doesn't make the core elements vanish. There are some basic things that leap to mind when you talk about an RPG and one of the biggest things is 'there is a GM of some kind'.

hawkeyefan · Jun 2, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
I will use a music analogy. Heavy Metal as a genre of music features a lot of essential elements. I would include obvious things like distorted guitar. But also I would include a tendency toward minor keys (and most people do include this in any definition of the genre). But there are subgenres of metal that break the minor key thing. A lot of power metal leans of major keys. There is nothing stopping you from writing a heavy metal album in all major keys. People would probably still regard you as metal (though you could be trodding onto pop territory for sure). The existence of exceptions like that don't break the general rule that minor keys are an essential aspect of heavy metal. A band can have 6 of the 7 essential elements and still be regarded as heavy metal. I would put games like fiasco into that category. It has many of the other essential elements, maybe it lacks a GM, but I don't think its existence now somehow makes GMs less essential.

Well we’re trying to boil things down to the most base elements.

I admittedly know next to nothing about heavy metal. But what I do know is that it does have all types of sub-genres within it, and that it is itself a genre of music.

So I don’t think the analogy is all that useful because we’re at the music level of the topic.

Bedrockgames said:
Also just to comment on the use of the word essential. I think generally we don't want to think in terms of essential qualities if the aim is a descriptive definition (which I think it should be). This is why I'd favor a definition that honestly tries to describe the RPG landscape. Clearly most RPGs have a gamemaster, and most RPGs do feature players playing a single character. So "A game where players typically assume the role of a single character in a world, setting or story, especially with a game master acting as referee or storyteller".

You don’t think that this is a description of a certain type of RPG? I think it’s the most prevalent type, but I don’t think it’s all encompassing.

Bedrockgames · Jun 2, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
Well we’re trying to boil things down to the most base elements.

I admittedly know next to nothing about heavy metal. But what I do know is that it does have all types of sub-genres within it, and that it is itself a genre of music.

So I don’t think the analogy is all that useful because we’re at the music level of the topic.

You don’t think that this is a description of a certain type of RPG? I think it’s the most prevalent type, but I don’t think it’s all encompassing.

That is why the definition includes 'typically' and 'especially'. I think you have to account for the most prevalent in the core of a descriptive definition. Then you can elaborate with variations and exceptions. But I think if we write the definition using the exceptions as guideposts, you'll have a definition that fails to convey the most standard experience of playing RPGs.

hawkeyefan · Jun 2, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
That is why the definition includes 'typically' and 'especially'. I think you have to account for the most prevalent in the core of a descriptive definition. Then you can elaborate with variations and exceptions. But I think if we write the definition using the exceptions as guideposts, you'll have a definition that fails to convey the most standard experience of playing RPGs.

But how do you determine what are the “exceptions”?

Everyone here knows what the most prevalent form of RPGs is....so that’s why I’m going broad in focus....at least it’ll potentially be a different discussion.

So rather that start with D&D (and all the many similar games), I think it’s interesting to try and look at all RPGs, without exception.

Bedrockgames · Jun 2, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
But how do you determine what are the “exceptions”?

Everyone here knows what the most prevalent form of RPGs is....so that’s why I’m going broad in focus....at least it’ll potentially be a different discussion.

So rather that start with D&D (and all the many similar games), I think it’s interesting to try and look at all RPGs, without exception.

Well, even the exceptions we've discussed so far, include some kind of GM-like ability being wielded by players at the table. But again, the problem with defining around exceptions is you produce a picture that doesn't connect well to the typical example of the thing itself. I am not saying the definition should be limited to D&D, but I do think that has to be your starting point. Any definition that fails to cover the key elements you are going to experience in D&D and games like it, which are the ones the vast majority of people are going to encounter, will not produce a definition that accurately reflects what most people mean when they talk about RPGs. After all, D&D is so ubiquitous, it is a synonym for RPGs (and I say this being someone who doesn't really play D&D anymore). That is the nature of descriptive definitions, they just attempt to accurately reflect current use. I think any such definition would need to be heavily D&D centric, but also account for games that are outside that bubble. But you don't have to account for the subgenres of RPGs by knocking the pillars of the core experience out of the definition.

hawkeyefan · Jun 2, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
Well, even the exceptions we've discussed so far, include some kind of GM-like ability being wielded by players at the table. But again, the problem with defining around exceptions is you produce a picture that doesn't connect well to the typical example of the thing itself. I am not saying the definition should be limited to D&D, but I do think that has to be your starting point. Any definition that fails to cover the key elements you are going to experience in D&D and games like it, which are the ones the vast majority of people are going to encounter, will not produce a definition that accurately reflects what most people mean when they talk about RPGs. After all, D&D is so ubiquitous, it is a synonym for RPGs (and I say this being someone who doesn't really play D&D anymore). That is the nature of descriptive definitions, they just attempt to accurately reflect current use. I think any such definition would need to be heavily D&D centric, but also account for games that are outside that bubble. But you don't have to account for the subgenres of RPGs by knocking the pillars of the core experience out of the definition.

This is precisely why I’d like to approach the topic from a different angle.

Bedrockgames · Jun 2, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
This is precisely why I’d like to approach the topic from a different angle.

Why? This approach accounts for the standard D&D experience while also acknowledging other experiences. That seems like the ideal approach to me. Anything else might create a skewed definition of the word.

To me there is just no escaping the fact that the bulk of the hobby is centered on D&D. I don't see how you can't account for that in a definition of RPG. The definition needs to be an honest reflection of what RPG means when people use the word.

Maxperson · Jun 2, 2019

hawkeyefan said:
So what’s your point? That Microscope is not an RPG? Or that GMless RPGs don’t exist because players in Microscope share some responsibilities that would fall to the GM in other games?

I think one of the essential requirements of the role of GM is that it performs different functions from the rest of the participants; wouldn’t you agree?

Yes and no. The requirements of the role of GM is that it performs duties that are different than the duties of a player. That means that if a player is performing the duties of a GM, that player is a GM for that period of time, even if there are also other GMs performing GM duties. There is no requirement for a single dedicated person to be a GM. Players can step into and out of that role when required for games like Microscope and Fiasco.

hawkeyefan · Jun 2, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
Why? This approach accounts for the standard D&D experience while also acknowledging other experiences. That seems like the ideal approach to me. Anything else might create a skewed definition of the word.

To me there is just no escaping the fact that the bulk of the hobby is centered on D&D. I don't see how you can't account for that in a definition of RPG. The definition needs to be an honest reflection of what RPG means when people use the word.

I think you’re right in that D&D looms large and is inescapable in such a discussion. So I see no need to cater to it.

Network television had long been synonymous with television. Someone in the mid-70s or early 80s would likely make a statement like yours that any discussion of television must revolve around the networks.

I don’t think we need to be afraid of D&D somehow getting lost in the discussion simply if we try to look at RPGs as a whole.

hawkeyefan · Jun 2, 2019

Maxperson said:
Yes and no. The requirements of the role of GM is that it performs duties that are different than the duties of a player. That means that if a player is performing the duties of a GM, that player is a GM for that period of time, even if there are also other GMs performing GM duties. There is no requirement for a single dedicated person to be a GM. Players can step into and out of that role when required for games like Microscope and Fiasco.

I’ve only played Fiasco a couple of times, but I don’t think that what you’re describing is very accurate. In any scene, you can either set up the scene or you can resolve it, and those aspects will change from scene to scene. But it’s not really a case of a rotating GM like you are suggesting.

And I know for a certainty that’s not how it works in Microscope. No one steps into GM mode and then back out of it. All the players have the same level of authorship and the same role in the game.

There are no GMs in these games. Your quest to somehow win the discussion has you making odd claims about games you’ve said you’ve never played.