Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

Aldarc · Jun 4, 2019

Imaro said:
How would attention to developing and using good or even exceptional wordcraft in a game be exclusionary?? No one said perfection has to be achieved, it's a scale, but totally disregarding it (in other words claiming even when performed at it's lowest bar or disregarded in full doesn't affect the game) is another matter all together that I just don't agree with.

If chefs were to expect that people must use high end ingredients in their cooking (or top quality kitchenware), then it tends to exclude the cooking efforts of those who can't afford, find, or even regards those high end ingredients (or kitchenware) as essential. (Not to mention potential diet restrictions.) I also don't think that these people should necessarily be aspiring to possess those better ingredients either simply for the sake of possessing them. It seems like the fundamentals of cooking the dish are more important to learn and perform. I don't think the conversation is about disregarding the quality of the ingredients (or the wordcraft), but in recognizing that buying quality ingredients is not essential for cooking the dish. It's a luxury, and I don't think we should shame those who either can't afford or choose not to cook with those high quality ingredients.

Imaro · Jun 4, 2019

Aldarc said:
If chefs were to expect that people must use high end ingredients in their cooking (or top quality kitchenware), then it tends to exclude the cooking efforts of those who can't afford, find, or even regards those high end ingredients (or kitchenware) as essential. (Not to mention potential diet restrictions.) I also don't think that these people should necessarily be aspiring to possess those better ingredients either simply for the sake of possessing them. It seems like the fundamentals of cooking the dish are more important to learn and perform. I don't think the conversation is about disregarding the quality of the ingredients (or the wordcraft), but in recognizing that buying quality ingredients is not essential for cooking the dish. It's a luxury, and I don't think we should shame those who either can't afford or choose not to cook with those high quality ingredients.

Whose shaming anyone about anything? Why even frame the discussion like that?

EDIT: Let me put it this way... there is a point where wilted, browning spinach, week old meat and stale rolls can't be overcome by good cooking and are going to make it so I don't eat a meal because it's unappealing (especially if there's an alternative with quality ingredients)... If I'm starving and have no other options, sure I'll swallow it down but since playing TTRPG's isn't a necessity I don't think it should be viewed in the same way.

Aldarc · Jun 4, 2019

Imaro said:
Whose shaming anyone about anything? Why even frame the discussion like that?

EDIT: Let me put it this way... there is a point where wilted, browning spinach, week old meat and stale rolls can't be overcome by good cooking and are going to make it so I don't eat a meal because it's unappealing (especially if there's an alternative with quality ingredients)... If I'm starving and have no other options, sure I'll swallow it down but since playing TTRPG's isn't a necessity I don't think it should be viewed in the same way.

You are going to an opposing extreme to argue your case.

Let me put it this way...

(1) More Requirements for Game Expectations (with Wordcraft) > (2) Less Requirements for Game Expectations (having or not having Wordcraft doesn't matter)

Not everyone will necessarily run their games with (1) so expecting or demanding (1) excludes those who run their games as (2).

Imaro · Jun 4, 2019

Aldarc said:
You are going to an opposing extreme to argue your case.

Let me put it this way...

(1) More Requirements for Game Expectations (with Wordcraft) > (2) Less Requirements for Game Expectations (having or not having Wordcraft doesn't matter)

Not everyone will necessarily run their games with (1) so expecting or demanding (1) excludes those who run their games as (2).

Yes and vice versa... those who find a game with the bare minimum devoted to it's narrative not interesting or not fun will not participate iun the hobby so claiming it's unnecessary or something that can be discarded excludes those whose enjoyment comes from it. In other words it's all preferences and playstyles and while it's cool to state what your particular ones are trying to extrapolate that to roleplaying as a whole will always leave some excluded.

Aldarc · Jun 4, 2019

Imaro said:
Yes and vice versa... those who find a game with the bare minimum devoted to it's narrative not interesting or not fun will not participate iun the hobby so claiming it's unnecessary or something that can be discarded excludes those whose enjoyment comes from it. In other words it's all preferences and playstyles and while it's cool to state what your particular ones are trying to extrapolate that to roleplaying as a whole will always leave some excluded.

(1) This is something of a false equivalence though. It's about like saying that ordering a cheese pizza for those who don't like pepperoni salami or who have vegetarian, halal, or kosher diets then we are being exclusionary for those who want pepperoni salami on their pizza. Sure, they may like or prefer the taste of salami, but the ordering of one pizza over another are not equal positions. And I don't think that quality wordcraft narration of the GM should be deemed an essential requirement for running TTRPGs.

(2) You are also falsely equating a position of "not regarding the quality of GM narration as important" with "bare minimum devoted to it's narrative." That's just silly and false, if not flat-out insulting.

Imaro · Jun 4, 2019

Aldarc said:
(1) This is something of a false equivalence though. It's about like saying that ordering a cheese pizza for those who don't like pepperoni salami or who have vegetarian, halal, or kosher diets then we are being exclusionary for those who want pepperoni salami on their pizza. Sure, they may like or prefer the taste of salami, but the ordering of one pizza over another are not equal positions. And I don't think that quality wordcraft narration of the GM should be deemed an essential requirement for running TTRPGs.

(2) You are also falsely equating a position of "not regarding the quality of GM narration as important" with "bare minimum devoted to it's narrative." That's just silly and false, if not flat-out insulting.

1. No since this is a leisure activity it is all about whether enjoyment is garnered from it... if you enjoy rpg'ing for reason X and X is no longer a part of rpg'ing you have no reason to partake in it... or in other words if I don't eat pizza without meat and you only order pizza with cheese... yeah you are purposefully excluding me.

2. It's not insulting so please calm the hyperbole down... we've already went there with the shaming statement earlier. If you say Y isn't a necessary component of X well then you should be able to remove Y and X should still perform it's main function perfectly well for all people... right? I don't believe that's the case here.

Aldarc · Jun 4, 2019

Imaro said:
1. No since this is a leisure activity it is all about whether enjoyment is garnered from it... if you enjoy rpg'ing for reason X and X is no longer a part of rpg'ing you have no reason to partake in it... or in other words if I don't eat pizza without meat and you only order pizza with cheese... yeah you are purposefully excluding me.

Your false equivalence remains false. Try again next time.

2. It's not insulting so please calm the hyperbole down... we've already went there with the shaming statement earlier. If you say Y isn't a necessary component of X well then you should be able to remove Y and X should still perform it's main function perfectly well for all people... right? I don't believe that's the case here.

How is accusing the other position of a position they don't hold - i.e., not caring about the narrative - not insulting? That's

, Imaro. That is utter

.

Imaro · Jun 4, 2019

Aldarc said:
Your false equivalence remains false. Try again next time.

Lol... Nice rebuttal... "cause I don't agree".

Aldarc said:
How is accusing the other position of a position they don't hold - i.e., not caring about the narrative - not insulting? That's , Imaro. That is utter .

Dude it's pretty simple, either it's important and thus it's inclusion (to whatever degree) matters or it's not important and it's absence would be fine. Quit waffling.

Aldarc · Jun 4, 2019

Imaro said:
Lol... Nice rebuttal... "cause I don't agree".

No. It's because I already explained how it is a false equivalence.

Dude it's pretty simple, either it's important and thus it's inclusion (to whatever degree) matters or it's not important and it's absence would be fine. Quit waffling.

It's not waffling to say that we should not equate "not regarding the wordcraft of GM narration as important" with "not caring about the narrative." It is insulting to claim that that these positions are equivalent. If you can't figure out how these two distinct positions are not the same or don't have the courtesy to bother, whichever it may be, then our conversation is irreconcilable.

Imaro · Jun 4, 2019

Aldarc said:
No. It's because I already explained how it is a false equivalence.

Yeah where somehow you dictating cheese pizza for everyone is more inclusive of those who only eat pepperoni pizza because... reasons?? Still not convinced.

Aldarc said:
It's not waffling to say that we should not equate "not regarding the wordcraft of GM narration as important" with "not caring about the narrative." It is insulting to claim that that these positions are equivalent. If you can't figure out how these two distinct positions are not the same or don't have the courtesy to bother, whichever it may be, then our conversation is irreconcilable.

Can yo have a narrative without any type of wordcraft? If not wordcraft is at some level necessary.