Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

uzirath · Jun 12, 2019

lowkey13 said:
Weirdly, I was primarily thinking about my experience teaching D&D (5e) to kids in this thread as well. . . . And that's why I keep saying that we overlook this, and overlook how games improve over time as we learn more ... techniques. Performance
techniques. Dramatic and narrative techniques.

I think you mentioned teaching to kids before; I have trouble keeping track of all the different elements of this mongo thread! But, I'm glad you're bringing the next generation up to speed too.

I agree that all of this is part of it, and I've included similar language in my pitches and budget requests at school. But there are pitfalls if I focus too heavily on performance/dramatic/narrative techniques with students. More on this below.

"But I'm largely sold on the premise that if I'm helping to train up new GMs, I should focus my energy on their fictional situations rather than on teaching them more evocative vocabulary."

But ... this is the issue I keep coming back to. It's not about an evocative vocabulary.

Yeah, it was a weak example. I agree with you that there is a lot more to "literary" (or "theatrical") technique than vocabulary. Sorry to trot that out here again.

I used to give new players the same advice that I received as a beginning gamer: model your stories on fiction that you love (whether books, TV shows, movies, plays, etc.). This is not always terrible advice: I still get inspiration from all sorts of fiction. But there are many pitfalls for GMs: railroading, too much exposition, resistance to improvisation, plot armor for antagonists who are "supposed" to show up later, feeling that the players are "messing up" the story . . . and I'm sure everyone on the forum could add many more examples. So I've slowly migrated to mainly teaching RPGs as their own thing, related to other art, but with different aesthetic sensibilities. A primary difference is the collaborative nature of authorship and the dynamic, improvisational element.

I'll admit, though, that I haven't teased all of this out, and I'm developing my thinking partly from this thread. (Gaming club is over for the year, so I won't be back in the "lab" until next year to try out some new ideas.)

hawkeyefan · Jun 12, 2019

Isn't it really just a style versus substance debate? Neither is right nor wrong...both have their place, and both are present in gaming. But which is more prominent will of course vary by person.

Put another way, is an RPG more of a game, or more of a story? Is it more important that it engage its participants in the way a game does (taking action, making decisions, achievement, etc.), or in the way a story does (producing emotion, immersion, etc.)? Yes, a RPG can be described as a game that is a story (or perhaps more accurately a game that produces a story), so it's really both things...but which do you think it is more? Obviously we all want to have fun, and we all want to be entertained....but when we play a RPG, which is more key to enjoyment?

In a medium like comic books, which includes both images and words, which is more important? Again, no right or wrong answer. There have been stories told entirely visually, with no words at all, and they've been brilliant. There have been other stories told with minimal visuals, but the narration and dialogue carries the story.

Some people will place more importance on one over the other; comics are a visual medium, so they must have images, so therefore the art is more important. Without the art, the writing may still produce what we would call a story, so the writing is more important.

lowkey13 · Jun 12, 2019

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lowkey13 · Jun 12, 2019

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hawkeyefan · Jun 12, 2019

lowkey13 said:
All substance, no style, and you are just playing a boardgame ... or a wargame.

All style, no substance, and you are just doing community theater.

That's why it's neither ... or both. It tastes great, and is less filling.

(Its a STYLISTIC .... SUBSTANCE, or, put another way, it's a ROLE PLAYING .... GAME ).

Yeah, I think I acknowledged that in my post, and I think we've made that clear throughout the thread, despite proponents of either using extreme examples as support. Both are necessary.

But I would imagine that most of us feel that one is more important than the other, such as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s stated preference in the OP.

To use your comparison (dated though it is, I sadly get it

), for some folks, lite beer being less filling may be more important to the taste. For others, the opposite is true. While it's both, what matters to people is, I think, what's interesting to discuss.

lowkey13 · Jun 12, 2019

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darkbard · Jun 12, 2019

[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION], to a much greater extent than you might imagine, I largely agree with much of your recent postings here, but because of your sarcastic and antagonistic style, I have lost any desire to engage your substance right now.

pemerton · Jun 13, 2019

darkbard said:
Well, of course, and I agree this is why we will never agree on the argument: because of the definitions. Context matters, especially when it comes to such nebulous concepts as "literary/literature." I'm pretty sure pemerton, Manbearcat, (not sure about Bedrockgames), etc. don't consider these posts literary, though it's clear you do.

Further: a message board is a written medium. It's not a conversation except in some rather metaphorical sense. Doubly so in my case given that most of the other posters are in a different country and different time zone from me.

And further further: I would have thought it's pretty clear my now that the OP is talking about the aims/virtues or RPGing. What it's about as an aesthetic activity.

And yet further again (and to the universe in general rather than darkbard in particular): not all disagreement is the result of confusion over what people mean. Sometimes people just say things that one disagrees with. It happens, in the arts as much as anywhere else.

Imaro · Jun 13, 2019

darkbard said:
@lowkey13, to a much greater extent than you might imagine, I largely agree with much of your recent postings here, but because of your sarcastic and antagonistic style, I have lost any desire to engage your substance right now.

I guess it's not just whether content is good or not... I guess the desire to engage with it or not can actually depend on how it's presented... Who woulda thunk it... :erm:

Ovinomancer · Jun 13, 2019

Imaro said:
I guess it's not just whether content is good or not... I guess the desire to engage with it or not can actually depend on how it's presented... Who woulda thunk it...

Don't think anyone's disputed that being a jerk has an effect... :erm: