Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

Imaro · Jun 13, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Don't think anyone's disputed that being a jerk has an effect...

Sooo... Are you agreeing that how content is presented can determine whether people wish to engage with it?

Fenris-77 · Jun 13, 2019

Something I've started to use more in my Literacy instruction, and which is going to feature in the RPG club I'm going to start next year, will be actual, honestly to goodness improv. Not because I want every session to be an improv session (far from it) but I found that improv as a warm up really loosened kids up and got them working together and overcame some of the shyer kids' natural reluctance to get into the conversation. It gets them thinking creatively, and that will help any RPG session.

As to the 'literary' value of D&D, or other RPGs, I think the term is too loaded in a bunch of ways. People who are "in English" or "in the business" tend to use 'literary' in one hand as a valorization of 'serious' authors and works, and in the other hand as a stick to flagellate authors they feel are too something (usually too popular or genre, but that's a different argument). In the broadest sense to call something literary is say it is connected to writing (literature), which RPGs are in enough ways to make the cut, at least for me. RPGs are a written thing, at least in part and to start, and the study of literature and it's forms, devices etc, very much inform pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't put a lot of value on 'literary' as a descriptor, so I don't feel like I'm giving much up being on the yes it is side of things.

pemerton · Jun 13, 2019

I think that for at least some maths teachers, who have graduated in the first instance with a qualification that emphasises skills other than verbal communication, training to teach and then working as a teacher improves their ability to speak clearly, to convey ideas well, to choose the right word for the task at hand, etc.

I don't think this suffices, in and of itself, to show that teaching mathematics is a literary endeavour.

Ovinomancer · Jun 13, 2019

Imaro said:
Sooo... Are you agreeing that how content is presented can determine whether people wish to engage with it?

Sure. Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise. I'm starting to think you've maybe missed the point.

Imaro · Jun 13, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Sure. Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise. I'm starting to think you've maybe missed the point.

Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine.

Hriston said:
Because color (dungeon dressing) is content that provides atmosphere when imagined by the participants at the table. The quality of form with which it’s expressed isn’t what’s important but rather whether the odors, noises, furnishings, and items found in an area suggest a torture chamber, a harem, or a wizard’s laboratory. In other words, it’s the actual content that matters, not the particular words that are used and the way they are said.

pemerton said:
...
My take on this is the same as @Hriston's - it sounds to me like the situation is not interesting enough! As I've already posted in this thread, my advice to that GM would be to work on situation, not to work on voice modulation...

hawkeyefan · Jun 13, 2019

lowkey13 said:
I hear what you're saying, but I'd go back to what I was discussing with manbearcat, in that you can't really disambiguate them like that.

Which is is what I've been trying to say for a while; even doing the whole substance/style dichotomy is inherently pejorative. "Yes, I just want the sizzle- hold the steak please."

What you refer to as the style, I would say is inherently part of the substance of the RPG. You can't even have an RPG without the "substance" of roleplaying.

The form follows the function. Or, perhaps, the function follows the form. Because they are intertwined.

I don’t think that style is in any way a pejorative. Earlier I listed several artists whose storytelling was more important than their story...and I consider them all brilliant.

Perhaps your view that it’s a pejorative is part of the issue?

Style’s precisely what’s being discussed. And yes, again, the two are intertwined. You can’t separate them in play. I’m fully aware of that. No one is saying “use only one and eliminate the other.”

But we absolutely can talk about which deserves more focus. We can do so generally, we can do so for specific examples, we can do so for RPGs or any other medium. I would say that they are separate enough that a GM could work on improving one area over the other. Would you agree with that? We typically describe the GM role as having multiple areas, right? Do we think of these areas as one jumbled mess, or as interrelated but distinct roles? I think it’s the latter.

Hriston · Jun 13, 2019

Imaro said:
Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine.

I don't know about @pemerton’s post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussar’s post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG.

Imaro · Jun 13, 2019

Hriston said:
I don't know about @pemerton’s post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussar’s post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG.

I was speaking to the genesis of the tangent... but not sure how this changes what you said.

Ovinomancer · Jun 13, 2019

Imaro said:
Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine.

Yep. I still think you've missed the point.