Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour? - Page 82
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  1. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadras View Post
    Bold emphasis mine.
    I agree with you, but here is the rub, @pemerton does not as per his OP. He does not even make that concession that someone could engage in a literary endeavour for their RPGing.

    This is the issue @lowkey13 has been highlighting for a while.
    You are correct that @lowkey13 keeps asserting this. But you are both wrong in your characterization of @pemerton's position. Many times now he has articulated that all things being equal, literary presentation can improve the quality of a game, but that caveat requires that the core activity of TRPGing be not in the presentation itself but in the invitation to meaningful engagement of the situation on the part of the PCs, that at its heart the issue is not performance but framing situations that invite protagonism.

    I'm sure pemerton will correct me if I have inadvertendly mischaracterized his position.
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  2. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkbard View Post
    You are correct that @lowkey13 keeps asserting this. But you are both wrong in your characterization of @pemerton's position. Many times now he has articulated that all things being equal, literary presentation can improve the quality of a game, but that caveat requires that the core activity of TRPGing be not in the presentation itself but in the invitation to meaningful engagement of the situation on the part of the PCs, that at its heart the issue is not performance but framing situations that invite protagonism.

    I'm sure pemerton will correct me if I have inadvertendly mischaracterized his position.
    I would love to agree with you, but I have tried to highlight the history of why this thread was created.

    Then I left for a while, and I see that we are not only no closer to a resolution, but that when @Hussar tried to reach common ground with @pemerton, such attempt was rejected.

    So ... yeah, it is what it is. Personally, I don't care how permerton plays, or how you play, or how people want to define (and re-define) terms in order to keep this argument going ...

    But I'm just pointing out that this thread was created to advance an argument, wait ... let me quote again ...

    about where the aesthetic merit and aeshetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view about what the point of RPGing ultimately is.
    To the extent someone is telling me what the REAL POINT of RPGing is ... well, they can pound sand. And I would expect them to say the same to me if I told them they were playing it wrong, because I knew "what the point of RPGing ultimately is."(tm).


    EDIT- And if you look back, you will see that way back when, I said that I have said that repeatedly- here:

    But to make this clear, again:

    Your opinions are fine. I think that you {the OP} often have a habit of universalizing your experiences, as we see in this thread; it is not enough to say that you enjoy a certain style of game, or even to recommend that to other people.

    Instead, you feel compelled to say that your style of play (or, at least, the style you are currently playing- I have to assume you haven't always had these fully formed and unshakable opinion about what a real TTRPG experience consists of) must be the universal experience. Hence a thread arguing that RPGing cannot be a literary endeavor, and that performance is unimportant to RPGs.

    That's where we disagree.
    Good? I'm not into arguing about how you play. It's all good! Just don't tell me about the real point of RPGs and expect me to accept it. If it works for you, more power to you.
    Last edited by lowkey13; Tuesday, 28th May, 2019 at 04:03 PM.
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  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    But Umbran .... someone on the internet .... IS WRONG.
    Two people on the internet are wrong. One is the person who is wrong. The other is the person who thinks they can change the mind of the wrong person on the internet by tossing facts and arguments at them.
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  4. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbran View Post
    Two people on the internet are wrong. One is the person who is wrong. The other is the person who thinks they can change the mind of the wrong person on the internet by tossing facts and arguments at them.
    But if two wrongs make a right ....

    then four people arguing on the internet can invent flight!




    (.... it will come. And once it does .... no, it's totally not worth it.)
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  5. #815
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    But if two wrongs make a right ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanefan View Post
    To each their own, I suppose.
    Well, of course....it's all opinion. But do you have any examples to share? Is there a module or adventure book you can think of where the actual content is pretty bland, but is presented so well that playing the adventure is worthwhile?

    I really can't think of any myself, but it's certainly possible they're out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanefan View Post
    So it's a BS example then. Got it.

    Had the eyepatch been in the first example then yes, it would provide a fine point of comparison between styles; and we could have gone on to dissect them and explain why we liked one or the other or a bit of both. That the eyepatch isn't there only serves to unfairly skew that comparison in a particular direction - I can only assume from what you say here that this was intentional.

    Not cool.
    I wouldn't call it a BS example. The two examples speak to the two things that were being compared in the OP. One makes more of an attempt to use evocative language to engage the players, and the second uses content (a man with an eyepatch) that will engage the players.

    The fact that you think it's so skewed, to me, implies that you know which is more engaging. Content simply matters more.

    I'm all for compelling description and evocative language and in painting a scene for players. But to me, that stuff is all dressing. The content is what's always going to matter the most.

  7. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbran View Post
    {video clip}
    Melf, the Erudite: "Although a double negative, in English, implies a positive meaning, there is no language in which a double positive makes a negative."

    Thag, the Bloody: "Yeah, yeah."



    (h/t Morgenbesser)

  8. #818
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    Quote Originally Posted by pemerton
    about where the aesthetic merit and aeshetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view about what the point of RPGing ultimately is.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    To the extent someone is telling me what the REAL POINT of RPGing is ... well, they can pound sand. And I would expect them to say the same to me if I told them they were playing it wrong, because I knew "what the point of RPGing ultimately is."(tm).
    No one is saying what THE REAL POINT of RPGing is. Someone has offered A VIEW about what the real point is.

    Seriously.....it's his opinion. Feel free to discuss it, agree or disagree or make a new point, but everyone needs to relax with this cry of one true wayism anytime someone puts forth their opinion without a giant disclaimer that it's their own view.

    As much disagreement as there seems to have been with @pemerton's point, I don't think I've seen much in the way of an actual counter-argument so much as challenging the way he's worded his argument.

    Does anyone have some compelling argument about how the literary quality of narration can be more engaging to players than content? Does anyone have an example of an incredibly well written module or game book that they think displays this?

    It'd be nice to see what people have in mind in that regard rather than the continuing discussion on the meaning of literary and so forth.
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  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    No one is saying what THE REAL POINT of RPGing is. Someone has offered A VIEW about what the real point is.

    Seriously.....it's his opinion. Feel free to discuss it, agree or disagree or make a new point, but everyone needs to relax with this cry of one true wayism anytime someone puts forth their opinion without a giant disclaimer that it's their own view.
    I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aeshetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view about what the point of RPGing ultimately is.

    I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aesthetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view that optimization is the right way to play TTRPGs.


    See? It's just a view.


    How about this?

    I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aesthetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view that (a particular edition of D&D is garbage).


    Good?

    Dude- say whatever you will about the tenets of National Socialism, it's just a view, dude.*


    As for the rest- I am sure that no one could possibly have offered any substantive rebuttal to the points offered by the OP in any of the hundreds of comments.

    \_(ツ)_/


    Anyway, enjoy. It's not like my posts now, or 500 posts ago, will change your mind; I mean, you just wrote that no one has even tried to rebut the OP, which .... some people might reasonably disagree with.



    *If this is too subtle, how about this?
    It is my VIEW that my way of playing is correct, and that the way you play is terrible and stupid.

    See? It's just a view.
    Last edited by lowkey13; Tuesday, 28th May, 2019 at 05:33 PM.
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  10. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aesthetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view that optimization is the right way to play TTRPGs.


    See? It's just a view.


    How about this?

    I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aesthetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view that (a particular edition of D&D is garbage).


    Good?

    Dude- say whatever you will about the tenets of National Socialism, it's just a view, dude.


    As for the rest- I am sure that no one could possibly have offered any substantive rebuttal to the points offered by the OP in any of the hundreds of comments.

    \_(ツ)_/


    Anyway, enjoy. It's not like my posts now, or 500 posts ago, will change your mind.
    Change my mind how? I'm willing to listen to your opinion on the topic. You obviously disagree with the OP, but how so? Other than his choice of words, I mean.....the tenets he put forth, how do you disagree with those? I don't think that pemerton ever actually implied anything negative about the opposing view.....he even said how most of the time it was a good thing.....so your edition war analogy doesn't really hold water.

    If anyone said anything substantive about the pros of literary quality in RPGs, I very well may have missed it. I heard a lot of assertion that it was important....and I would absolutely agree that it is.....but I don't think anyone said why it was more important than the situation.

    I'm genuinely interested in hearing about that, and have been trying to keep to that topic as much as possible, rather than debate semantics.

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