Good, Evil, Nature, and Druids

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION], I'm not talking about colloquial anthropomorphisation - "negative charges want to be near positive charges" and thst sort of thing.

What I'm saying is that there are, in fact, in the real world of religion and philosophy (some forms of Buddhism and Hinduism, some forms of Hellenic philosophy, a certain reading of Aristotle, etc), people who think that (i) there are natural laws which will preclude evil people from experiencing certain forms of wellbeing and/or capacity, and (ii) that this has nothing to do with decisions by a sentient being to punish or otherwise withhold benefits.

Positing a similar thing in the gameworld is therefore, in my view, quite coherent. And doesn't require supposing that the nature in question is sentient, or is "taking steps", to punish the evil.
 

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Thanks, everyone, for sharing your thoughts and campaign traditions. Here's a draft of what I'm thinking about for my current campaign world.

My current game cosmology is rooted in the loose system used in the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game (kinda "GURPS D&D"). Magic is divided into three realms: clerical, druidic, and wizardly (other powers can be based on inner strength, like a monk's chi abilities). Druidic magic comes from life itself. Like traditional D&D wizardly magic, druidic magic is not actively mediated by any conscious entities (at least not that the mortal world knows of). The morality of druids, therefore, is as wide-ranging as that of wizards. (Clerics have their deity to contend with if they stray too far from the expectations of their sect.)

In some regions, druidic orders have developed (like wizard guilds) that enforce codes of behavior. They may actively pursue "rogue druids" to maintain their reputation (or doctrinal purity, or their monopoly on nature power, etc.). Such a druid society may be fully woven into the society and politics of a region. In other areas, druids are more solitary or form competing circles. Depending on the area's particular history, they may be mistrusted or seen as primitive and uncivilized. It's even possible that in some areas they are actively opposed, outlawed, and/or hunted. Because druids who stray from any particular moral path will not be stripped of their powers, even independent druids may have an incentive to eliminate brethren who make too much of a nuisance of themselves. In D&D terms, druidic morality is similar to the default 5e setup where they can be of any alignment, though something akin to neutral may be a common choice.

Druidic magic works best in the wilderness. It is weaker in artificial areas like cities, castles, or dungeons. (There's a sliding scale). It is at its worst in areas that are truly devoid or toxic to life itself (perhaps places defiled by magic, like the old Sea of Dust in the WoG). This suggests that it wouldn't make sense for an "evil" druid to be literally opposed to all life. They might oppose particular aspects of life (civilization, wizards, hordes of humanoids, etc.), but they wouldn't be creating radioactive wastelands (unlike, say, a particularly depraved wizard). Similarly, undeath is antithetical to life, so they wouldn't normally ally with necromancers and whatnot. Though I could see druids who have no problem animating natural corpses via unorthodox methods (fungal infestations, animated vine exoskeletons, yellow musk zombies, etc.).

Alliances with Lovecraftian horrors seems similarly unlikely, though I'm not ruling out the "different nature" idea I mentioned in the OP.

I'm still mulling over the "old religion" stuff. I have some work to do figuring out the Big Picture theological questions of the campaign world. I'm also unsure how elemental magic fits into things. In default DFRPG, druids can wield elemental magic because the raw elements are "natural." I like the idea of a Volcano Druid or something like that. An erupting volcano is obviously natural, but it's also pretty toxic to life in the short term, so I'm not sure how to balance that equation. I recognize that eventually, new life will emerge, but it feels qualitatively different from a disease epidemic or plague of locusts. In those cases, there is death for some creatures, but plenty of other life happening at the same time. A massive lava flow pretty well wipes things out until life can creep back in.

I'm open to further stories from your worlds, or questions, suggestions, or critiques of this sketch.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Druidic magic comes from life itself...In some regions, druidic orders have developed that enforce codes of behavior. They may actively pursue "rogue druids" to maintain their reputation. Such a druid society may be fully woven into the society and politics of a region.
… why does that druid have a brilliant-energy katana, and why is he so mad at that other druid in black with a red brilliant-energy double-sword?
 
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MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
I think "evil" druids won't be our usual understanding of evil.

I think a druid who kills humanoids and causes them pain to restore natural balance, not treating them differently from any other animal, would be perceived as Evil.
 

I think "evil" druids won't be our usual understanding of evil.

That depends on how much leeway you allow for druidic morality and what you mean by "our usual understanding of evil." According to the framework I presented above, I'd allow druids to be as evil as most other humans. It would certainly be possible for a druid to be selfish or greedy or lecherous or murderous. It wouldn't be the norm, necessarily, but since their power is not mediated by a moral force, it would be possible for such a druid to exist.

In terms of D&D-style alignment, then, the druid could be evil. In reality, of course, the application of the term "evil" to somebody depends on the prevailing morality of the surrounding culture and an array of social factors.(Does the druid come from a respected family? Are her crimes known? Does she perform good deeds to counteract her less wholesome tendencies? etc.)

I think a druid who kills humanoids and causes them pain to restore natural balance, not treating them differently from any other animal, would be perceived as Evil.

Yeah, I think so too.

Though, of course, that "natural balance" thing can be a philosophical nightmare to sort out unless you design your setting to specifically make humanoids unnatural. (That's a nifty setting idea: most sapient races are colonists from other planes/planets/continents; the druids represent the old order, attempting to remove the invasive species. Now that I've written that, I know it's been done, but I can't recall if it was a game setting or from fiction.)
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Though, of course, that "natural balance" thing can be a philosophical nightmare to sort out unless you design your setting to specifically make humanoids unnatural. (That's a nifty setting idea: most sapient races are colonists from other planes/planets/continents; the druids represent the old order, attempting to remove the invasive species. Now that I've written that, I know it's been done, but I can't recall if it was a game setting or from fiction.)

Exactly. Typically, I don't give it too much thought. I'm running a game not designing a morality system. I let the players fill in the details and I usually don't have to go too deeply into philosophical argument in the social role play.

But, I do have the "advantage" of having had a lot of religious studies classes in undergrad, with an dual emphasis on native american religions and eastern religions. I also had the great opportunity to take classes with J. Baird Callicott when he was still at the University of Wisconsin, so I had great exposure to environmental philosophy, especially the Leopoldian Land Ethic.

This doesn't make me an expert by any means. But it does help me b.s. my way through playing NPCs with different world views.

As far as traditional D&D Great Wheel mythology, I would have most druids interpret a split between the primal natural world (perhaps with a dose of animism) versus divine magic. Any creature that is sentient and has a soul is apart from the natural order. Again, I've not thought through this too much. It is a fantasy game with elves and nobody has really pushed me into trying to argue this stuff in game.
 

pemerton

Legend
that "natural balance" thing can be a philosophical nightmare to sort out unless you design your setting to specifically make humanoids unnatural.
From my perspective, which (as I posted upthread) draws on Gygax's alignment descriptors, what's "unnatural" about humans and their ilk is reasons and/or will: humans make choices, in part on the basis of abstract ideals like good and evil, and this is what disturbs the balance.
 

Though, of course, that "natural balance" thing can be a philosophical nightmare to sort out unless you design your setting to specifically make humanoids unnatural.
Exactly. Typically, I don't give it too much thought. I'm running a game not designing a morality system. I let the players fill in the details and I usually don't have to go too deeply into philosophical argument in the social role play.

From my perspective, which (as I posted upthread) draws on Gygax's alignment descriptors, what's "unnatural" about humans and their ilk is reasons and/or will: humans make choices, in part on the basis of abstract ideals like good and evil, and this is what disturbs the balance.

My students (and colleagues) often make fun of my cavalier usage of the term "nightmare." I should have said something less hyperbolic, like, "can require some forethought." Game masters of quality (three stars and above!) have either given it some thought or have the "b.s." skills (augmented, perhaps, with prior knowledge) to whip something up on the spot. I've found that although most players know that they need to understand the basics of a cleric's philosophy, many assume that druids are all the same (and that they know how druids think). I've seen players jump into games playing druid archetypes ranging from ecoterrorists ("We must burn the city to the ground!") to stoner hippies ("Dude, everything is part of nature, so whatever they do is fine with me... let's try smoking these berries!").

Of course, as I'm currently thinking about it, both of those possibilities could coexist in my amorphous campaign world. Though, since their powers spring from life itself, it would be unlikely that they would support burning entire populations unless the alternatives were certain to cause even greater devastation.
 

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