If there's one game where stat differences are justified, what game would that be?

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Celebrim

Legend
Thought: Why use penalties?

Why not use bonuses?

Because they are the exact same mechanic. It's well known you can trick the monkey brain of the player by turning penalties into "bonuses", but fundamentally the two modifiers have the same result.

But as I said, I don't think arguing over the mechanics is a particularly interesting thing to do.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
The conversation has drifted a bit since your opening post and I'm addressing issues of "realism" that others have brought up to justify a stat penalty for women characters. I haven't shifted the goal posts at all.



In your opening post you posit a setting where hulking brutes are, by definition, male, and in D&D terms such a setting would penalize women characters with a -4 Strength with a minimum of 8. From the very beginning you made stat penalties a part of the discussion and I think my observation is valid. Many people have used "realism" to justify the exclusion of women as equal characters in their fantasy games.

I don't know if anyone has posted that it's wrong to have any games where gender has an impact. But some people have concerns about settings where "realism" penalizes women characters. If you didn't want this to be part of the discussion you probably shouldn't have brought up stat penalties in the first place.
No, you set up the straw man "we draw a line in the sand" as if anyone considered strong women unacceptable.

And now you're doing it again. I can certainly bring up stat penalties without giving you the right to set up easy victories against some imaginary voice.

I definitely am not saying *all* games should have gender stat penalties, that's patently ridiculous. I am discussing if *any* games can, and if so which ones.

I returned to the thread specifically to call out the way you're deliberately conflating two different standpoints. There's no line and no sand here.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Thought: Why use penalties?

Why not use bonuses?

If your system says the difference between men and women is a 4 Strength, why not give men +4 strength? Define things by what they are instead of what they're not.

Also: I could see this working in a very cheeseball sci-fi setting where we've destroyed the earth and men are literally from Mars and women are from Venus. Ya know "Plan 9 from Outer Space" kind of stuff.

My gut tells me that changing the penalty to a bonus will not be welcomed as a change for the better. You’re still giving one gender a mechanical advantage over the other.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
p.s. Now’s a good time to remind one champion DM that there are no more genders than “male” and “female”, and that any system that explicitly codifies rules for only those two is necessarily going to be scientifically sound.

There a lot of nonsense in this post, but I'll only respond to this one because it's the only one that appears to be directed at me. Also, it's both wrong (as in, scientifically unsound) and entirely transphobic, and has no place here.

Once again, as much as I love it when people with more confidence in their grasp of natural and social science than actual grasp of natural and social science try to deny my existence, such speech is literal bigotry and does not belong on this forum.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
That's kinda the point. D&D is fantasy. So who cares if human women DOESN'T have the same strength as human men.

It seems that it's really important to make them equal and if you are not doing that, it's somehow incorrect.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. This reads like you are saying that playing a game where women PCs are inferior to male PCs by game mechanics is the correct way to play the game?
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
There a lot of nonsense in this post, but I'll only respond to this one because it's the only one that appears to be directed at me. Also, it's both wrong (as in, scientifically unsound) and entirely transphobic, and has no place here.

Once again, as much as I love it when people with more confidence in their grasp of natural and social science than actual grasp of natural and social science try to deny my existence, such speech is literal bigotry and does not belong on this forum.

Indeed. And if anyone is curious (this isn't directed at you because you already know), this is from the World Health Organization (which I will point out is scientifically sound):

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

So to say that there are only two genders is objectively false
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
But the longer people keep talking, the more I feel like the crux of the argument is some people are offended by reality. Invariably the conversation shifts from something like 'its demeaning to fantasize about women as purely sexual objects to be possessed' - something I agree with - to something like 'its demeaning to portray women realistically'. And at that point, I become baffled. Isn't it demeaning to even suggest that it would be demeaning to portray women realistically? Are we going to be like the person who stormed out of an academic conference because someone suggested that on average and in the extreme, men are taller than women? Ia any difference between the sexes - however obvious those differences might be - now become taboo to mention? I feel sometimes like we've become Victorian prudes concerning reality, and even very basic and obvious observations about it are now unmentionable.

The problem is so much quote-unquote "realism", which is more tenuous than you or many others might describe (the idea that the U.S. Women's soccer team would lose to an average high school freshman men's squad is completely laughable). Yes, there are currently definitive differences between biologically female and male athletes in a number of ways that are apparent at comparable competitive levels, though we are starting to see the cracks breaking in that "reality" (or at least in the structures that organize around it).

The problem is reductivism. It's reducing specific genders/races etc. (or even just individual characters) to nothing but a collection of stereotypes. And then acting as if those "truths" are universal. This is what leads to things like female strength penalties (or charisma bonuses; remember that reinforcing positive stereotypes is also problematic.)
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Indeed. And if anyone is curious (this isn't directed at you because you already know), this is from the World Health Organization (which I will point out is scientifically sound):

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

So to say that there are only two genders is objectively false

I'll note that this is the argument regarding the existence of more than two biological sexes, which also true and generally what gender essentialists are talking about when they talk about gender. Gender, as opposed to biological sex, is a social construct that exists on a very broad spectrum.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I'll note that this is the argument regarding the existence of more than two biological sexes, which also true and generally what gender essentialists are talking about when they talk about gender. Gender, as opposed to biological sex, is a social construct that exists on a very broad spectrum.

Agreed. I was actually noting the difference when I made my post, but I figured most come up with how they define gender by those sex variations, so it's kinda the same. Not in definition, but in application. In general how most in society use those terms anyway. I hope that makes sense. I'm not articulating it very well.

Either way, there are more than two sexes, and more than two genders. Scientifically. To argue otherwise is wrong. And I'll also note in a fantasy game, it makes even less sense to make such a claim because it goes beyond scientifically proven theory and fantasy allows literally anything.

On a related note, if someone insists on giving women mechanical disadvantages because "realism", then that makes me think they are some part of MRA or INCEL group that I want no part of anyway. Just my opinion, but my internal monologue usually goes "you get real life privileges over women anyway, but that's not enough and you need to make sure you're superior in a fantasy game when we actually have the easy ability to make everyone equal?"
 

Celebrim

Legend
The problem is so much quote-unquote "realism", which is more tenuous than you or many others might describe (the idea that the U.S. Women's soccer team would lose to an average high school freshman men's squad is completely laughable).

I'm not making that claim without evidence (although you've slightly altered my claim). You realize that they do play exhibition games against U15 and U17 teams, and that most of the time they do lose? Most of the time these games aren't highly publicized, but I'm sure you'll be able to find the case where they lost to FC Dallas's U15 boys team 5-2, for example.

Are you in fact offended by reality?

Yes, there are currently definitive differences between biologically female and male athletes in a number of ways that are apparent at comparable competitive levels, though we are starting to see the cracks breaking in that "reality" (or at least in the structures that organize around it).

I have no idea what that means.

The problem is reductivism. It's reducing specific genders/races etc. (or even just individual characters) to nothing but a collection of stereotypes. And then acting as if those "truths" are universal. This is what leads to things like female strength penalties (or charisma bonuses; remember that reinforcing positive stereotypes is also problematic.)

No, because I have specifically argued against reductivism, noting for example that there is nothing unrealistic about having a woman much stronger, faster, or in all ways more athletic than myself. Thus, I have fully endorsed the position that only knowing the sex of the person, we can't know which is the more athletic, and I will fully endorse it again. As far as the claim of reductivism goes, I can't help but feel you in particular are now projecting, since I know for a fact that when I've argued that knowing only some quality of a person we can't know some other quality because people's individuality was greater than the collection of groups that they'd been categorized in, you've rejected that when it suited you.

Nor in my outline of anything have I suggested that the outcome of this chargen process must be a stereotype. For example, we could have a chargen process where you rolled a random number and were then assigned a person of the chosen sex from the pool of all the world's females. The character would then be based off a real person, and since real people are almost always more than stereotypes, any claim that the chargen process produced a stereotype would be provably false. You would never know what sort of person you'd end up with, and any attempt to guess based on the 'average person' would probably be a stereotype. I have certainly not argued for or acted like "truths are universal" as you put it, and by making that claim so in opposition to what you are actually responding to, I can only feel we are talking past each other.

But I continue to not understand what you are trying to communicate, nor do I feel you have answered my essential question. In fact, so unrelated is your response to my claims, that it feels deliberately evasive to me.
 

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