What is missing in 5E that you had in other editions?
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  1. #1
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    What is missing in 5E that you had in other editions?

    Out of curiosity: What is missing in the 5E rule sets that you enjoyed in prior editions?

    Dual Class: In AD&D a human could dual class, while every other race could multi-class. Multi-class was advancing in several classes at once, while dual classing was starting over in a new class and getting your old class abilities back once you reached a higher level in your new class. Modern multi-classing is sort of a hybrid, but I miss having dual class options because those options still allowed for a PC to reach the pinnacle of a class, even if they did not start heir journey there.

    For example, I had an intelligent fighter in AD&D that was the sole survivor of a beholder battle. The rest of the players started new PCs, but I (secretly) dual classed my fighter into a wizard. Over time he became an archmage and still exists in that game world as an important NPC. He would not have reached the same ending under the modern multi-classing rules. Of all the characters I have played in D&D, this one was played the most and is the one that I most treasure.

    Invoker: 4E was ... not my favorite edition, but it did have some high points and one of those was giving us a Divine class that spoke to me. It was not a living wand of healing or a weaker fighter with a few useful spells - it was the Wrath of the Gods. WotC tried to make some of the cleric builds in 5E feel like Invokers, but it just doesn't add up to the same thing. To really do it justice, Invokers would need their own spell lists, they'd need abilities that evoke Old Testament religion, and they'd need to as removed from melee combatants as wizards (generally) are. They'd be big on curses, evocations, divinations and transmutations... but light on enchantment, illusion, abjuration and 'buffing' spells. Theyd have the zealouness of a raging barbarian, they'd induce terror like the best of warlocks and they'd lay waste like the greatest archmage war wizards. That does not exist in 5E the way I think it should.

    Overlapping Spells: The concentration mechanic serves an importnt role. It fixed a lot of issues. However, some of those issues were fun. In prior editions, my wizard would be there in the battle, flying... invisible... protected from fire... and with a half dozen more buffs protecting him from the drago tearing into the group. Now it is ... different. I waffle on whether it is better or worse, but I do miss loading up on those spells and the feeling that came with assembling the magical defenses. I was happy, as a player, and the character felt heroic when the magical armaents went up - like in the cut scenes in cartoons when the heroes form the blazing sword, unite the robots, or call upon the Ear of Fomberia. I've toyed with a few mechanics to address the issue, but nothing is quite right, yet...

    What do you miss? We don't need to spend too much time critiquing what others miss - do we?
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  2. #2
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    An easy way to make PCs out of various critters: Savage Species was a fun book, even if the rules are wonky when push comes to shove.
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  3. #3
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    Robust tactical combat (3.x-4e), balance (4e), wide amounts of 3pp material (3.x).
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    Summoner subclass
    (A decent) Pet subclass (in ranger, warlock, druid classes)
    Last edited by gweinel; Friday, 17th May, 2019 at 06:35 PM.

  5. #5
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    Subclasses at first level for all classes
    3e class variant abilities
    Skill Points as an official option
    A customizable system for creating martial arts styles with maneuvers and ki abilities
    Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook
    Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook
    Green Ronin's Witch's Handbook
    4e Warlord
    Skirmisher Press's Insults and Injuries
    Last edited by Greg K; Friday, 17th May, 2019 at 06:44 PM.
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  6. #6
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    @jgsugden I also liked the ad&d multiclass, however, it was very slow compared to single class characters. Dividing experience between two classes gave you versatility at low levels but at higher levels you were just weak. In my opinion this is why the classes had such a disparity in the amounts of experience that had to be earned in order to gain a level. It encouraged players to play a mentioned combination. The classes presented in The Dragon magazine were an attempt to give more options for play. Regardless of the class being published as npc, they always gave an experience level chart which said "play me".

    In my game your backgrounds determine which of four class experience tracks you follow, Divine, Arcane, Mundane, Nonpareil (for those that do not fit well in the first three). The difference from ad&d is for example a cleric/magician at first level you choose between having miracles (turn undead, etc...) or spell "slots", this is repeated every time you level. At second level the choice is a new miracle or self discovered spell, at third miracle or "slots", and so on....
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    death/fear. 5e PCs seem too robust to my tastes. No more save or die, and no real fear of really bad creatures, like rot grubs, or level draining.

    Other thing I miss isn't rule based, but marketing based, and that's published modules. I don't care for big campaign books. Love me my modules

    And finally, I really miss interior b/w line art.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retreater View Post
    Robust tactical combat (3.x-4e), balance (4e), wide amounts of 3pp material (3.x).
    Question. With the DM's Guild (as well as already existing OGL), why don't you feel there are wide amounts of 3PP material? What exactly are you looking for?
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  9. #9
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    Mechanical support for intelligence. While the new skill system is good, now that int is divorces for that system it really feels like the dump stat of the edition.

    4e bloodied condition and mechanics for it.

    4e monsters. Now there were problems with early monsters but ultimately I found as a dm it was easier to use stock 4e monsters and have interesting combats. Certainly can do it in 5e, just takes a bit more work and imagination.

    3e charge. Its probably the common rule my players forget is not in 5e
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrosanct View Post
    Question. With the DM's Guild (as well as already existing OGL), why don't you feel there are wide amounts of 3PP material? What exactly are you looking for?
    I guess the big difference is "in print" where I can thumb through it at my FLGS or conventions. The DM's Guild material is also heavily skewed to the Forgotten Realms, so if you're wanting something other than vanilla, high fantasy, you're out of luck. The creativity and diversity we saw in the d20 era with products like fantasy products like Ptolus, and also different genres like Mutants and Masterminds, Delta Green - we just don't see that these b days.
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