D&D 4E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Yaarel · Jun 2, 2019

The elegance of the core engine affects everything. 4e did much to begin the consolidation of the ability scores.

Two principles guide the assessment of the core engine.

The ability scores work well when thematic and narratively intuitive. So that themes that naturally go together utilize the same score. Without ambiguity during narrative resolution.

The ability scores are mechanically useful and equal in power. So each ability score can benefit the player who chooses to invest in it.

4e reduced the ability scores to a 3+ consolidation.

The somewhat loose-ended threesome achieved the goal of mechanical balance.

In my experience, the four ability scores are most salient and evenly balanced solution. But perhaps there are other solutions too.

Essentially, the consolidation of mental scores:

• Wisdom splits into two, granting its Perception to Intelligence, and its Will to Charisma.

Thematically, Charisma becomes *the* social ability score, including empathic insight.

Intelligence becomes the rational ability score, including observational skills, and sensitivity to detail.

Zardnaar · Jun 2, 2019

My idea of a clone is to stay reasonably faithful to 4E, maybe shaving of 10 levels and lowering paragon and epic tier, changing things like NADs due to copyright, powers might be reworded etc but would be similar.

6 ability scores, the 3 saves being afected by dex/int, con/str, wis/cha. Some powers might be condensed and have the extra damage built into the main class, mostly to streamline things. If you can streamline it you can add in extra classes, races (they don't require much room).

MoonSong · Jun 2, 2019

EzekielRaiden said:
There never was a commitment to "filling" every role/class pair. Even the Psionic classes had precedent already (Battlemind = Psychic Warrior, and Ardent and Psion already existed from 3e.)

to be fair, 3e ardent was very different from 4e ardent. Both in roll and fiction. 3e ardent is more mystical and contemplative.
4e ardent is an empath with traces of 3e wilder.

Yaarel said:
The elegance of the core engine affects everything. 4e did much to begin the consolidation of the ability scores.

Two principles guide the assessment of the core engine.

The ability scores work well when thematic and narratively intuitive. So that themes that naturally go together utilize the same score. Without ambiguity during narrative resolution.

The ability scores are mechanically useful and equal in power. So each ability score can benefit the player who chooses to invest in it.

4e reduced the ability scores to a 3+ consolidation.

The somewhat loose-ended threesome achieved the goal of mechanical balance.

In my experience, the four ability scores are most salient and evenly balanced solution. But perhaps there are other solutions too.

Essentially, the consolidation of mental scores:

• Wisdom splits into two, granting its Perception to Intelligence, and its Will to Charisma.

Thematically, Charisma becomes *the* social ability score, including empathic insight.)

Intelligence becomes the rational ability score, including observational skills, and sensitivity to detail.

And what do you do with the cleric?

Having six scores opens up the door for more meaningful differentiation. The avenger is cool because it has the wisdom equal awareness equals prescience equals ac that would just not be there if he had just armor or used just dex. The sorcerer is cool because she is physical while still a caster -and not smart-. The Barbarian can soak lots of damage that would kill a regular fighter... All of that is because of the scores.

Yaarel · Jun 2, 2019

MoonSong said:
And what do you do with the cleric?

When the two mental ability scores are Intelligence and Charisma,

The Cleric is obviously Charisma, the leader of a spiritual community, who can inspire hope, achieve faith healing, socially interact with positive beings, compel and intimidate negative beings. And so on. To some degree, the Cleric personifies the social aspects of the game.

MoonSong · Jun 2, 2019

Zardnaar said:
My idea of a clone is to stay reasonably faithful to 4E, maybe shaving of 10 levels and lowering paragon and epic tier, changing things like NADs due to copyright, powers might be reworded etc but would be similar.

6 ability scores, the 3 saves being afected by dex/int, con/str, wis/cha. Some powers might be condensed and have the extra damage built into the main class, mostly to streamline things. If you can streamline it you can add in extra classes, races (they don't require much room).

I'm toying with stuff like Forte(Fort), Touch(Ref), Willpower(Will). Also to make a minor patch and allow wis to apply to fort, strength to apply to ref, and int to apply to will.

Yaarel · Jun 2, 2019

MoonSong said:
Having six scores opens up the door for more meaningful differentiation.

I view the skill systems of the later editions, 3e and 4e, as working better to differentiate the aspects of each ability score.

MoonSong · Jun 2, 2019

Yaarel said:
When the two mental ability scores are Intelligence and Charisma,

The Cleric is obviously Charisma, the leader of a spiritual community, who can inspire hope, achieve faith healing, socially interact with positive beings, compel and intimidate negative beings. And so on. To some degree, the Cleric personifies the social aspects of the game.

And the avenger (revenger?) would be int based? what about the wizards with more brains than sense?

Yaarel · Jun 2, 2019

MoonSong said:
And the avenger (revenger?) would be int based? what about the wizards with more brains than sense?

Wizards with more brains than sense, have moderate Intelligence and high knowledge skills. They more specifically might have low Charisma and poor social skills.

I havent seen the Avenger in play. But its creators viewed it as the ‘Batman class’. In this sense, the class benefits from Intelligence, including Perception. The Avenger also has Charisma, perhaps more so relating to Will and Intimidation, but the zealot archetype might be skilled at Persuasion. The Avenger can have subclasses whose archetypes benefit from different secondary ability scores.

Some classes might be pure, and rely mostly on one ability score. But other classes might depend on more than one ability score.

Tony Vargas · Jun 2, 2019

Yaarel said:
Wizards with more brains than sense.

Almost the root meaning of wizard.

Yaarel said:
Th
4e reduced the ability scores to a 3+ consolidation.

The somewhat loose-ended threesome achieved the goal of mechanical balance.

OK, you've got a point, there. 4e did pair up the stats for purposes of defenses, which was a consolidation, of sorts.

IDK if you ever checked out the last ed of Gamma World, it used a lot of 4e innovations, and took them further. One case was the stat pairs, which were used for offense as well as defense.

Garthanos · Jun 3, 2019

Yaarel said:
The number of persons whose life one impacts increases each level ...

1, 3, 10, 30, 100, 300, 1000, 3000, 10 000, 30 000, 100 000, 300 000, and 1 million at level 13.

This is decent ballpark figure for a DM to keep in mind when think about the ‘scale’ of a campaign.

It occured to me one might have several different scalings of impact going on.

mass scale : h x w x d x density ;
volume scale : h x w x d;
area scale : h x w; or w x d; or hxd;
linear scale : h or w or d;

hmmmm I am now wondering exactly what I meant by this but since I am on pain meds I am hoping it means something.