D&D 4E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Tony Vargas · Jun 4, 2019

Garthanos said:
some yeah but honestly I want heros to really outclass the blue blazes of the challenges they had 1 tier ago ...

It does, just via hp/damage rather than 'accuracy.' The kobolds can still hit you, you can still miss them, they can occasionally make a save when you cast at them - but whether they do or not, the sheer power of your fireball vaporizes them.

I have described it as my chosen one of the goddess at level 23 in 4e is still better at bluffing the of a mayor because of her breadth of experience and confidence she has levelling regardless of putting points into deception or charisma. NOT so in 5e she is a schlup at it.

Yeah, a schlup can still roll well. I mean, a lot of 5e functionality across pillars or levels comes down to the 'warm body' effect. If you can make a check, at all, you often have a shot. Bob the fighter may be at -1 total to some check, but he can still roll a 19, maybe even a 23 with some Guidance. Same would be true for just, like, Bob the peasant, if he happened to be there - he wouldn't be there, because of all the wandering damage you encounter between meaningful checks, but /if/ he were. ::shrug::

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
It does, just via hp/damage rather than 'accuracy.'

Tell me when skills are delivering hit points on their effects? I will think about it.

Tony Vargas said:
Yeah, a schlup can still roll well. . ::shrug::

Who cares the chosen one isn't better the numbers tell the tale of her being no more convincing fluke events not withstanding how is that brought up as a fix oh silly one.

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Context for me where this lag becomes important is the flavor and tone of skill challenges (this was discussed in length in another thread about what you gain playing 4e vs traditional and it came up around skill challenges) but even just what kinds of things might be accomplished via skill checks.

I might have to hunt up that thread.

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
or allow any character attacked psionically to counter-attack psionically with, like, a Mental Basic Attack (WIS/CHA).
(In the original Gamma World, "Mental Strength" was just stat, not just something psions or mutants with mental powers had, so it's not beyond the pale.)

This made me think of RuneQuests use of a Power stat basically for that exactly... but it affected almost everything in small bits so you were never nerfed by points dropped in it.

Yaarel · Jun 4, 2019

Actually, something about 5e I would like to fix. Skill math.

I like bounded accuracy in 5e. It bothers me that skill math drops this astute design principle, for things like skill expertise.

For the 4esque, I would like a version of expertise that doesnt double the proficiency bonus. I have seen good suggestions in the ENWorld forum for what to do instead.

Yaarel · Jun 4, 2019

Garthanos said:
It occured to me one might have several different scalings of impact going on.

mass scale : h x w x d x density ;
volume scale : h x w x d;
area scale : h x w; or w x d; or hxd;
linear scale : h or w or d;

hmmmm I am now wondering exactly what I meant by this but since I am on pain meds I am hoping it means something.

You might be on to something. Different aspects of the game level at different rates. It might be something like you are saying, where some factors are in play, while other factors arent, depending on the aspect.

MoonSong · Jun 4, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
It was kinda cool, and very simple, but it left the WIS/CHA pair out in the cold.

'Heavy' weapons (melee or ranged, even heavy 'guns') used STR/CON. 'Light' ones INT/DEX. When you picked a weapon you just decided, one or two handed, melee ranged or gun - then described it however you like. It can also hurt. If you want a character who's both perceptive & likeable or both agile & smart, for instance, you're 'wasting' build point.

I suppose, but you're not getting anything really out of the INT, while DEX might've helped you with certain exploits and weapon feats.

This is why I propose the "innovation" of giving some stats the chance to apply to a second defense so this situation doesn't happen. If you have the STR/CON pair, then Str can apply to Ref, if you have INT/DEX, int can apply to Will, if you have Cha/Wis, Wis can apply to Fort.

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

MoonSong said:
If you have the STR/CON pair, then Str can apply to Ref,

Every hear of fast twitch muscles ... this is just a weirdness of classic D&D isms vs reality but in real life muscle speed quickness is directly associated with strength

However Stamina is actually the opposite slow twitch muscles. So you might take a feat in 4e style which allowed Str for Reflex but not Con

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Yaarel said:
Actually, something about 5e I would like to fix. Skill math.

I like bounded accuracy in 5e. It bothers me that skill math drops this astute design principle, for things like skill expertise.

Too bumpy for your taste? It usually went up a bit by 3s or 5s in 4e but also had a general 1/2 level gain perhaps making it seem less so.

My idea of a general proficiency (perhaps calling it heroic competence) is kind of like that it adds in addition to any other proficiency

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Yaarel said:
You might be on to something. Different aspects of the game level at different rates. It might be something like you are saying, where some factors are in play, while other factors arent, depending on the aspect.

Your level 13
the square root of 1 million 1000
the cube root of 1 million 100
the quad root of 1 million 31.6+