5E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules - Page 17
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  1. #161
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    Call the 4 ability scores:

    • Fortitude
    • Reflex
    • Perception
    • Will

    To use the Persuasion skill, add the Will bonus. To improve AC add the Reflex bonus. Making a knowledge check? Add the Perception bonus.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    People realistically are not going to get to epic level.
    I've seen more high-level play in 4e than every other edition combined. Epic level play happens, you can get to it - or skip to it - and when you're there, the system holds together. I ran a campaign starting as an Encounters season at 1st level, through to Epic that only stopped for RL exigencies (technically on hold, but a game on hold for year might as well be over), in about half 10 years it took me to get my AD&D campaign from 1st through 14th.

    A clone … doesn't need to be a perfect copy.
    That's what a clone /is/. A copy. The point of PF was that 3.5 fans could keep playing a continuation of 3.5, not that they could play some "love letter to 3.5" or "fantasy 3.5 heartbreaker."

    OSRIC is not a compilation of playstyles, but a compilation of TSR era rules mechanics, cleverly mixed with SRD wording to evade copyright law.

    If all you want is 'playstyle' you never needed to clone anything.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garthanos View Post
    4e heroic begins closer to level 5 in 5e.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    I've seen more high-level play in 4e than every other edition combined. Epic level play happens, you can get to it - or skip to it - and when you're there, the system holds together. I ran a campaign starting as an Encounters season at 1st level, through to Epic that only stopped for RL exigencies (technically on hold, but a game on hold for year might as well be over), in about half 10 years it took me to get my AD&D campaign from 1st through 14th.

    That's what a clone /is/. A copy. The point of PF was that 3.5 fans could keep playing a continuation of 3.5, not that they could play some "love letter to 3.5" or "fantasy 3.5 heartbreaker."

    OSRIC is not a compilation of playstyles, but a compilation of TSR era rules mechanics, cleverly mixed with SRD wording to evade copyright law.

    If all you want is 'playstyle' you never needed to clone anything.
    Well as I said 90% of games do not get to level 11.

    In OSR games it takes a while to get to level 11. In modern times it's more likely due to RL stuff.

    High level stuff doesn't tend to sell. Content has been created and still doesn't sell.

    OSRIC is just one clone, a lot do diverge

    Without DDI which any potential new player can't get you need a large pile of 4E books and then find players. Not to many 4E players are usng PHB only in 2019 I suspect.



    I'm just pointing out how OSR games did it.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Well as I said 90% of games do not get to level 11.
    100% of 4e campaigns I've been in have at least reached 11th. One-offs & con games and encounter-seasons-long games are a different story - but many of those have just started & ended at Epic with no issues.

    I know it's a truism & long-standing self-fulfilled prophecy that high-level D&D just isn't really a thing - it takes too long to get there, it doesn't work, the sweet spot is in the single digits, etc - but as in so many other ways, 4e was an exception.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garthanos View Post
    4e heroic begins closer to level 5 in 5e.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    100% of 4e campaigns I've been in have at least reached 11th. One-offs & con games and encounter-seasons-long games are a different story - but many of those have just started & ended at Epic with no issues.

    I know it's a truism & long-standing self-fulfilled prophecy that high-level D&D just isn't really a thing - it takes too long to get there, it doesn't work, the sweet spot is in the single digits, etc - but as in so many other ways, 4e was an exception.
    Or more likely you're one of the 10%. I played 2E to level 19, 3E to 30. I'm under no illusion that's expected/popular.

    High level has issues including 4E. 4E just had different problems instead of being outright broken it was slow, boring, grindy etc.

    13th Age goes to 10, B/X is level 14 and it's more popular than BECMI. Mentzers on record of saying if he did BECMI again he would stop at 20.
    Last edited by Zardnaar; Friday, 31st May, 2019 at 11:45 PM.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Or more likely you're one of thev10%. I played 2E to level 19, 3E to 30.

    High level has issues including 4E. 4E just had different problems instead of being outright broken it was slow, boring, grindy etc.

    13th Age goe to 10, B/X is level 14 and it's more popular than BECMI.
    Sure, but in 13th Age, anything above 7th level is Epic play. It works quite well for what it is. 7th level is the 4E equivelant of 21st Level and the 5E equivelant of 14th.

    Throwing out numbers about what amount of campaigns get to X level/tier is sorta meaningless, cause I don't think any of us has actual data and our individual anecdotes mean...well, nothing

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garthanos View Post
    4e heroic begins closer to level 5 in 5e.
    Quote Originally Posted by HJFudge View Post
    Sure, but in 13th Age, anything about 7th level is Epic play. It works quite well for what it is. 7th level is the 4E equivelant of 21st Level and the 5E equivelant of 14th.

    Throwing out numbers about what amount of campaigns get to X level/tier is sorta meaningless, cause I don't think any of us has actual data and our individual anecdotes mean...well, nothing
    Main reason is I have tried writing my own D&D. It's a lot of work, I have 5 classes, 50 feats and 50 odd monsters and I'm not happy with 2/5 of those classes.

    They had what 5 authors for 4E. It seems you can't get 5 people to agree on anything. I know how to clone 4E, I don't know how to clone it in terms of logistics and by that I mean writing the damn thing.
    Last edited by Zardnaar; Friday, 31st May, 2019 at 11:56 PM.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Or more likely you're one of the 10%. I played 2E to level 19, 3E to 30.
    I ran 1e through 14th (one PC in that campaign even reached 18th). I played two long campaigns that started in 3.0, ended in 3.5 just as we hit 14th. It's /possible/ to play and D&D to high level, but the cracks become chasms, you spend much of your effort fixing and compensating and modding.
    It can be worth it.

    slow, boring, grindy etc.
    stock complaints about 4e of any level

    Hey, if you want to say 90% of D&D game don't go to high level, you're probably right. Heck, 4e had such a short run, it probably doesn't constitute 10% of all D&D games ever played.

    Whatever you dislike about 4e is going to be there at Paragon & Epic - so are the things we like about it, because the game still works at Paragon & Epic.

    High level has issues including 4E. 4E just had different problems instead of being outright broken
    The issues 4e had with very high level play were lack of quality published adventures and good DM advice for getting the mood & scale of the stories right. It had the same issues with Paragon until the DMG 2 came out.
    There was no DMG 3.



    Even just "not outright broken" when you're at double-digit levels is a major accomplishment for a version of D&D.
    Why clone a game that managed that, yet throw it away?
    Last edited by Tony Vargas; Saturday, 1st June, 2019 at 12:02 AM.
    XP Yaarel gave XP for this post

  9. #169
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    Hey the other D&D's don't have good higher level adventures either although a few are good level 10 to 14.

    We did archmage campaign 2E it was stupid but we had fun. My level 19 wizzie flunked a hold person spell and got eaten.

    It's a lot of work though.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    Hey the other D&D's don't have good higher level adventures either although a few are good level 10 to 14.
    Not saying no other game had that issue... just acknowledging it's an issue 4e actually did have at high level. One that could have been solved if it had been allowed to live a bit longer, instead of changing directions with Essentials after only 2 years.

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