5E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules - Page 18
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  1. #171
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    The crap 4E adventures are a side product of the rules. The good adventure writers have been doing it for a while. Hell most of the 5E people were around in AD&D, same thing for Pathfinder.

    A good adventure is more art. 4E kind of tried with things like rules on magic items, encounter design etc but ended up very paint by numbers. It can give you a basic template but will lead to lots of average adventures.

    5E hitting above the average for adventure design, Pathfinder was but went downhill around 2012 or 2013. They stopped focusing on making good adventures vs supporting their latest splatbook.
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  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    The whole point of a clone is that your copying something that already works (in whatever way or to whatever extent it does, anyway). 4e was functional at all levels, so there's certainly no need to focus on Heroic Tier. If anything, focus on Epic would make more sense, since, while functional by-the-numbers, that Tier was not as well supported with DMing advice and the like as Heroic in the DMG1/Essentials and Paragon in the DMG2.
    I'm saying don't make another clone. Make it something better!
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  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Lewis View Post
    I'm saying don't make another clone. Make it something better!
    That's where "fantasy heartbreakers" come from.
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  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    While the goal is to reverse-engineer 4e, the clone is also an opportunity to finetune the system. To improve it for certain sensibilities if there is enough agreement. Here are suggestions that interest me.
    FYI, your suggestions do not interest me in the slightest.

    I would personally like to see a 4E-esque game that reduced the level spread to 10. Much in the spirit of what @Zardnaar has been saying, I don't think that it's a coincidence that so many fantasy heartbreakers have designed their classes around 10 levels instead of 20. It's easier to condense the leveling experience so that you can do much of the same with less levels.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Sun View Post
    I don't see why any additional level of granularity is needed? You'll know they're social challenges because the DM will call for social-checks, or checks with social outcomes. You'll know they're environmental challenges because the DM will call for checks that are relevant to the environment.

    I'm not really aware of any improvements made by the community, again, I find 4E to be the least-needing of house ruling of any edition I've ever played (unless you're aiming for a specific flavor of gaming). That is to say: I think Skill Challenges work pretty well out of the box.
    IMO, yes and no. We basically got two approaches to skill challenges from the publications. The first one was a list of skills and then correlating actions based on those skills, which you see in DMG1 and DMG2. Then later (example of this is in the Cairn of the Winter King adventure in the Essentials Monster Vault) you get a second style of skill challenge where they had a series of possible situations that the players come into and how the skill checks can be used for these situations. I personally found the second model to work better for player immersion into the role play. You also see the evolution of skill challenges throughout the books and there have been videos online from DMs where they talk about different approaches to skill challenges. PHD20 is a example. He has a whole series of 4E videos that players and DMs can reference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Sun View Post
    I don't know about your experiences, but 4E is pretty modular. I'm not sure how to make it "more modular" without simply creating more abilities with more variety in their effects.
    I am not talking about making it more modular, I am talking about bringing the modular element back to the center of the character development and streamlining the process in a way that is more clear to the players what is going on. They moves away from that with Essentials and started coming up with linear class structures. I would also like to see the builds focus more on the roles then just the classes. For example, with the fighter, the mark ability was a key feature of the fighter being a defender. Have each build have a different Mark ability that reflects what they build is doing. So the Guardian Fighter would have a mark ability that strengthens his ability to protect others, vs the Battlerager Fighter build, which would have a mark ability that strengthens his ability to cause massive damage to a single target (like a striker class).


    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Sun View Post
    Yeah, social "encounters" have always been something D&D never handled well, but I can't say I can think of a system with social encounter rules that isn't A: really complex or B: not good. Social encounters are really free-form and depend a lot on a player's ability to think critically and speak well, or at least roll well to make their character speak well.
    True, but you can still come up with a social encounter system that can still drive the narrative forward in a meaningful way. I think that is something that a lot of players get confused on. You don't need a social encounter system to have every day roleplay interactions. You need it for situations where you need to convince a NPC to do something that they might not want to do or be involved with game stories with a lot of political intrigue. Yea, you could just have it made up on the fly, but you do run into players who want to use more strategy in their interactions and having a system in place would help with that. The folks at WotC saw this at one point and came up with a basic social encounter system in P2: Demon Queen's Enclave adventure.

    the social encounter system I came up with ended up being really similar to the one in P2: Demon Queen's Enclave (developed independently) and my players have been really enjoying it, especially our bard and rouge. They were able to shut down a combat situation with a Frost Giant with them and they were able to get the giant to make something for them through it. Feel free to check out the rules in P2 if you want. The one I came up with goes along the line of there are certain "social actions" (like basic combat actions) that you can do in a negotiation and these are played out differently depending on whether you are trying to be honest (diplomacy), cheat and lie (Bluff), or if you are trying to bully your way through it (Intimidate). Depending on the NPC, some methods work better then others, and one player could do the same social action in different ways and get different results depending on how they go about it. I took these actions and then I used the skill challenge rules to come up with my social based skill challenges. They also ended up correlating with the Bard's AEU abilities really well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Sun View Post
    All I'm really getting at is that, at the end of the day, there's IMO so little to justify a 4.5 that at best you'd be getting a 4.1, and I question if that's really necessary for a whole new retroclone to be born out of.

    I mean, about 2 pages of houserules would probably address everything you just mentioned.
    2-3 pages of house rules, a 5 page pack on social encounters, a 10 page booklet on the Fundamentals of 4E magic, and about 40 pages of homebrewed skill challenges and narrative challenges. I have been running 4E games since 2009 and there are other changes I would make with things in the math and such, but frankly I do not have the time to do it on my own. We are talking about what we would like to see in a 4.5, so I threw my 2 cents in.

  6. #176
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    A main feature D&D 4e, is the semi-reduction of the ability scores to three balanced and equally useful ability scores.

    • Strength/Constitution/Fortitude
    • Dexterity/Intelligence/Reflex
    • Charisma/Wisdom/Will

    This salient consolidation of D&D deep mechanics down to three, works well mechanically.

    However, 4e remains more complex because Passive Perception functions as a defacto fourth defense.

    • /Perception

    Moreover, thematically, the consolidations remain awkward, such as Intelligence becoming identical with Reflex, understood as anticipation, but remaining nonidentical with Perception. Relatedly, the dissonance of Reflex associating with swiftness and leaping, yet remaining disconnected from the athletics and speed of Strength remains incongruent since pre-4e editions.

    Strictly speaking, D&D 4e mechanics has 4 ability scores, that serve also as defenses.

    • Strength/Constitution/Fortitude
    • Dexterity/Intelligence/Reflex
    • /Perception
    • Charisma/Wisdom/Will

    Yet these four ability scores merit a further refinement of their most salient aspects.

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    Strictly speaking, D&D 4e mechanics has 4 ability scores, that serve also as defenses.

    • Strength/Constitution/Fortitude
    • Dexterity/Intelligence/Reflex
    • /Perception
    • Charisma/Wisdom/Will

    Yet these four ability scores merit a further refinement of their most salient aspects.
    You forget /Insight, which also has a passive score and is derived from Wisdom. Also, /Perception is derived from Intelligence. So Wis and Int have double the influence on defense scores. But what about Constitution?

    Con affects hit points and healing surges, which can be argued as the ultimate defense. Having more hit points (and the ability to recover them) keeps any adventurer alive longer. Granted, the influence on hit points is a little less pronounced in this edition where everything gets into triple digits quickly, but it is still relevent. And now we have the full spectrum of meaningful defenses and attributes:

    • Strength/Constitution/Fortitude
    • Constitution/Hit Points/Healing Surges
    • Dexterity/Intelligence/Reflex
    • Intelligence/Perception
    • Charisma/Wisdom/Will
    • Wisdom/Insight
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  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    A main feature D&D 4e, is the semi-reduction of the ability scores to three balanced and equally useful ability scores.
    You seem to have a one-track mind. I'm not interested in the 4e that you are trying to sell.

  9. #179
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    Different players have different preferences concerning different aspects of the game.

    I care about the elegance of the core engine of the D&D gaming system. Some players care about this too. Other players dont mind the irregularities, and view them as familiarities.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc View Post
    You seem to have a one-track mind. I'm not interested in the 4e that you are trying to sell.
    Heh, your post comes across as if, you decide for all players everywhere? It also comes across as less civil.

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    Different players have different preferences concerning different aspects of the game.

    I care about the elegance of the core engine of the D&D gaming system. Some players care about this too. Other players dont mind the irregularities, and view them as familiarities.
    That's fine, but this thread is about fitting 4e on the 5e engine and not reinventing the engine entirely from the ground up.

    Heh, your post comes across as if, you decide for all players everywhere? It also comes across as less civil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldarc View Post
    You seem to have a one-track mind. I'm not interested in the 4e that you are trying to sell.
    Nowhere in my post do I speak for anyone other than myself, Yaarel.
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