D&D 4E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules

Garthanos · Jun 3, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
IDK if you ever checked out the last ed of Gamma World, it used a lot of 4e innovations, and took them further. One case was the stat pairs, which were used for offense as well as defense.

I like that thought.

Garthanos · Jun 3, 2019

Yaarel said:
Moreover, thematically, the consolidations remain awkward, such as Intelligence becoming identical with Reflex, understood as anticipation, but remaining nonidentical with Perception.

I think of it as fast thinking and planning ie quick situational pattern analysis...

The fact is for me the entire initiative function being buried in Dex is more problematic to my thinking initiative is "deciding fastest" and that is mental.

Garthanos · Jun 3, 2019

Yaarel said:
Different players have different preferences concerning different aspects of the game.

I care about the elegance of the core engine of the D&D gaming system.

One value of the 3 primary defenses is .... tadah flexibility in Character Design

I can literally in 4e build a STR / INT / WIS fighter and via only a few of those micro feats put to getter a bitingly effective fighter without Dex and since CON was not as important in 4e because of things like certain backgrounds and classes having more impact on them as well as surges the above stat trio would work better than fine.

The smart fighter without nerfing itself or even using the Warlord.

Zardnaar · Jun 3, 2019

2E also had builds for smart fighters. Optional rule for NWP warriors could turn them into WPs.

5E int=dumpstat, even in B/X you got extra languages iirc.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 3, 2019

Am I the only one that wants a game that plays basically like if 4e had been updated to use Bounded Accuracy instead of the numbers treadmill, monster HP values fixed, powers able to be upgraded rather than replaced, a small amount of power consolidation and just letting mulitple classes share powers where sensible, and ditch most sources of stacking static modifiers?

I mean, I'd also want to see essentials style play enabled by being able to choose the same power multiple times and take passive always on abilities instead of powers once you have at least one of AED powers, and remove most +X from magic items as well as from feats, but but yeah I really like the basic structure of 4e. I see no reason to change it.

Well, okay, one more thing I'd change. Each class would have basic attacks, and all attack powers would add to your basic attack. No weirdness where an avenger sucks at making basic attacks granted by a leader or opportunity attacks unless they take a feat. You at-will would say, make a basic attack against one target with melee range. On a hit, XYZ. And that basic attack would be your basic attack, so an Avenger would have a basic attack of "Wisdom vs AC, 1[w]+wisdom mod, melee weapon" and another that read "Wisdom vs Attribute, 1[d]+wisdom modifier, implement" Impliments might have base damage die values, but your powers could change the damage die in their descriptions. Most at-wills would use the base value. Maybe just use the base value regardless.

Some classes might have attack powers that deviate from that, but they'd still have that basic attack to fall back on when the warlord yells "target the caster, there!" or whatever. Wizards might have Magic Missile, which deals 1d4 damage per tier.

At-wills would scale with level like 5e cantrips, and you could choose between scaling up your encounter and daily powers and replacing them with higher level ones.

People who like simplicity would just take Power Attack and Split The Tree as their Encounter and Daily Ranger powers, and just gain more uses of them per day or encounter instead of new power options. Others might gain a passive ability instead of a new power/power "slot".

Tony Vargas · Jun 3, 2019

Garthanos said:
I like that thought.

It was kinda cool, and very simple, but it left the WIS/CHA pair out in the cold.

'Heavy' weapons (melee or ranged, even heavy 'guns') used STR/CON. 'Light' ones INT/DEX. When you picked a weapon you just decided, one or two handed, melee ranged or gun - then described it however you like.

Garthanos said:
One value of the 3 primary defenses is .... tadah flexibility in Character Design

It can also hurt. If you want a character who's both perceptive & likeable or both agile & smart, for instance, you're 'wasting' build point.

I can literally in 4e build a STR / INT / WIS fighter and via only a few of those micro feats put to getter a bitingly effective fighter without Dex and since CON was not as important in 4e because of things like certain backgrounds and classes having more impact on them as well as surges the above stat trio would work better than fine. The smart fighter without nerfing itself or even using the Warlord.

I suppose, but you're not getting anything really out of the INT, while DEX might've helped you with certain exploits and weapon feats.

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
It was kinda cool, and very simple, but it left the WIS/CHA pair out in the cold.
'Heavy' weapons (melee or ranged, even heavy 'guns') used STR/CON. 'Light' ones INT/DEX. When you picked a weapon you just decided, one or two handed, melee ranged or gun - then described it however you like.

Wisdom could be a Zen option for ranged weapons. and maybe Cha a tricky move option for light?

Tony Vargas said:
It can also hurt. If you want a character who's both perceptive & likeable or both agile & smart, for instance, you're 'wasting' build point.

Less than 5es homage to more saves are better where int is totally worthless unless you cast spells or face psionic attacks.

Tony Vargas said:
I suppose, but you're not getting anything really out of the INT, while DEX might've helped you with certain exploits and weapon feats.

But not necessarily i would be spending those cool feats on wisdom fun and plenty of non-dex fighting moves.

Tony Vargas said:
I suppose, but you're not getting anything really out of the INT, while DEX might've helped you with certain exploits and weapon feats.

Sure but to me that didnt even seem as cool as the Wisdom feats enabled. (and if you have wary fighter and good int the Dex bennys seem more peripheral)

But Yes Warlord was definitely where the smart fighter was likely to land or actually a hybrid if that is your style works very well. (And even the Martial Practices I have been designing that are Int based are Warlord flavor. )

Tony Vargas · Jun 4, 2019

Garthanos said:
Less than 5es homage to more saves are better where int is totally worthless unless you cast spells or face psionic attacks.

If you were going to go back to 6 saves, why not go back to the original 6 saves?

But not necessarily i would be spending those cool feats on wisdom fun and plenty of non-dex fighting moves.
Sure but to me that didnt even seem as cool as the Wisdom feats enabled. (and if you have wary fighter and good int the Dex bennys seem more peripheral)

I can certainly see the use for WIS for the fighter.

Wisdom could be a Zen option for ranged weapons. and maybe Cha a tricky move option for light?

Oh, yeah, I could certainly see either of those. Probably both with 'light' weapons...

… the other thought that occurred to me was for WIS/CHA to work with psionic attacks... and either have some kinds of relatively common ("Ishtar" if you're familiar) technology be useable as WIS/CHA weapons, or allow any character attacked psionically to counter-attack psionically with, like, a Mental Basic Attack (WIS/CHA).
(In the original Gamma World, "Mental Strength" was just stat, not just something psions or mutants with mental powers had, so it's not beyond the pale.)

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Am I the only one that wants a game that plays basically like if 4e had been updated to use Bounded Accuracy instead of the numbers treadmill, monster HP values fixed, powers able to be upgraded rather than replaced, a small amount of power consolidation and just letting mulitple classes share powers where sensible, and ditch most sources of stacking static modifiers?

some yeah but honestly I want heros to really outclass the blue blazes of the challenges they had 1 tier ago ... and bounded accuracy in 5e numbers doesnt look like it gives us that. I have described it as my chosen one of the goddess at level 23 in 4e is still better at bluffing the

of a mayor because of her breadth of experience and confidence she has levelling regardless of putting points into deception or charisma. NOT so in 5e she is a schlup at it.

Garthanos · Jun 4, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
Edit: Ok, that may need some reasoning, I realize it's quite a claim. Thing is, back in the day, you'd grind against a dungeon a bit, and then 'go back to town' to rest. Some DM's'd let you barricade yourself in a room or something and rest. You fought as much as you could, rested as much as you could /to recover spells/, sometimes in cycles, and moved on. The excruciatingly slow natural healing rates never came into it. You had your Cleric systematically cast Cure..Wounds or whatever until you were all healed up, maybe that meant 'resting' two days in a row, even, but that's as slow as it ever got. (I've seen 1e played /lots/ of ways, but /never/ the cleric-less, weeks of recuperation - barring 0 hps & a DM who enforced those rules - some people seem to think was the only way anyone ever played it.)
So, no HD and overnight healing don't break the 1e feel of 5e. They zip over something that was boring and usually moved over pretty quickly in 1e if you could manage it.

Exactly how I recall in fact it was very rinse wash and repeat heck even if your party hated clerics it kind of felt like tough that's the way the game was played. What a relief to have Poets, Priests and Politicians all with words to thank for their positions.