5E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules - Page 25
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  1. #241
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    Instead of reducing to four, the ability scores might achieve salience by increasing to eight. Splitting off two incongruencies seems to alleviate some of the main difficulties.

    Here, Athletics and Senses, are two ability scores that add to the traditional six, Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

    So there are eight ability scores, plus four defenses (see below). Each defense benefits from two corresponding ability scores. Because of 5e bounded accuracy, the defense will likely benefit from either one or the other. But it would be nice if a defense can somehow benefit from both, making investment in both more salient.

    Hopefully tradition can more easily integrate the adding of ability scores, rather than subtracting from them.



    Strength. Size matters. Bigger creatures hit harder. Bigger creatures tend to carry more. Also, bigger creatures might sometimes be clumsy and less athletic. Here, Strength represents the attack bonus in the sense of bashing thru defenses, as well as the damage bonus, plus the overall carrying capacity, and thus the physical Size. A very high Strength score is effectively a Large creature, and likewise gains reach in melee. The Giant type tends to exhibit extraordinary size along with the exceptional Strength.

    Size according to the Strength score might formulate as follows: 3-6 Tiny, 7-10 Small, 11-14 Medium, 15-18 Powerful Build, 19-22 Large, 23-26 Huge, 27-30 Gargantuan.

    Constitution. Sheer physical toughness, and the ability to shake off damage. Also the ability to resist fatigue and maintain concentration. Even a smaller creature might be amazingly tough, such as a Tiny cat. (My family had one cat that lived up to the reputation of ‘nine lives’!)

    The Fortitude defense benefits from either the size of Strength or the toughness of Constitution.



    Athletics splits off to function as its own salient ability score to represent bodily maneuverability. Athletics includes move and speed, extending to climbing, jumping, balancing, and falling. Grappling and finesse weapons are also part of this score. It is an important ability score. Large creatures can be strong but clumsy, such as the archetypal Ogre. Here having Large-size Strength but low Athletics is easier to represent. Conversely, smaller creatures might be amazingly maneuverable yet not especially strong. I have in mind Wood Elves, who seem to me to have high Athletics (including climbing and falling from trees) yet not be especially strong. But consider stats for a Cat, being Tiny and relatively weak, yet amazingly Athletic and maneuverable, including grappling ability.

    Dexterity emphasizes manual dexterity, emphasizing hand-eye coordination and sensitive manipulation of objects, including the aim of missile weapons. Note, a champion archer or marksperson might never miss a shot, while simultaneously being very low Athletics, even unhealthily obese or missing limbs. Dexterity also includes the ability to Craft high quality items, including magical clothing and weapons.

    The Reflex defense can benefit from either the body-agility of Athletics or the hand-eye coordination of Dexterity. Personally, I would like 4e AC to merge into the Reflex defense. So, without armor, the Reflex defense and ones AC are identical. In this case, armor is a special equipment that can effectively improve the Reflex defense by means of deflection, but might require a Strength score (against heaviness) or a Constitution score (against fatigue) as an item prerequisite.



    Senses split off to function as its own ability score, to represent the ordinary five senses, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting. Many animals have an extraordinarily high Senses ability score, without having an especially high Intelligence score, nor having an especially high Wisdom empathy. An Senses is no longer a ‘must have’ skill, but rather a fundamental ability like Strength and Intelligence. Skills associating with the Senses score might include acute smelling, long-distance seeing, faint-sound. Special senses like darkvision, echolocation of bats and dolphins and vibration detection of spiders, also key off of the Senses ability score. Illusionists might need a high Senses score in order to simulate sensorial experiences. The Senses ability score improves the initiative bonus.

    The Stealth skill might relate moreso to avoiding being sensed, thus an aspect of the Senses ability score. A Rogue is both stealthy and highly observant sensorially. Someone who understands vision is more likely to camouflage well. Similarly stealthy animals tend to be sensitive, and not especially with a high Dexterity to aim missile weapons or craft objects. A high Senses score improves ones talent int the Stealth skill.

    Intelligence includes every form of knowledge, whether by education or intuition, including experience and reason. In the sense of intuition, Intelligence also extends to extrasensory ways of knowing, including psychic hunches and mystical insights, and perhaps fateful luck from prescience. For these intangible aspects, the Psion specializes in Intelligence.

    The Perception defense defends against hiding, invisibility, illusion, and surprise. It benefits from both the animalistic Senses ability score and the more distinctively human Intelligence to figure things out.



    Wisdom relates to social skills, but is moreso about willpower and force of personality. Mental attacks and damage, such as psychic damage, key off of Wisdom. Wisdom is more like mental Strength and power, whereas Charisma is more like mental Athletics and maneuverability. Moreover, Wisdom in the sense of mental force includes effects relating to fear, frightening, and intimidation, as well as domination and hold effects that override the will of a target.

    Charisma includes the social skills, in order to persuade other minds. It includes empathic insight to perceive and navigate the emotions of others. Charisma extends to all charm effects. In addition to empathy, Charisma ultimately relates to telepathy, the direct contact between two minds. Charisma also relates to communication and language, not so much about a large vocabulary, but being able to convey oneself accurately in the context of a listener, and to discern the gist of where an author is coming from. Empathy also extends to the ability to impersonate a particular individual.

    The Will defense benefits both from Charisma in the sense of perceiving and side-stepping a mental manipulation, and from Wisdom in the sense of resolve pushing back the mental attack. The Will defense also serves to see thru the attempts of an impersonator.



    Fortitude defense
    • Strength
    • Constitution

    Reflex defense
    • Athletics*
    • Dexterity

    Perception defense
    • Senses*
    • Intelligence

    Will defense
    • Charisma
    • Wisdom



    * These two ability scores add to the traditional six, totaling eight ability scores.
    Last edited by Yaarel; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 06:20 PM.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    How would people think that healing surges gets replaced with the fighters second wind ability, the difference being its an action to use it and its HD based so a Warlord would get 1d8+level, a fighter gets 1d10+level, a wizard gets 1d6+ level instead of the 4E 25%.Less math personally I'm not to worried about exact 4E representations (looking at concepts). Its doesn't scale exactly with level (its a bigger % level 1 than 20) but its still relative to the HD.
    HD-based second wind for everyone, and using HD as a basis for healing, could be good adjustments to 5e. Failing to scale with level is a real, problem, simply letting you spend HD (and decide how many) would help with that, though it'd also highlight how inadequate HD are as a healing mechanism to keep up with 5e rapid damage scaling. You'd also just plain need a lot more HD.

    4e could be grindy.
    Anything short of rocket tag could be called 'grindy' - and genuinely feel that way if you just don't like the game, up-front, so the best you can hope for is that playing it can be kept mercifully brief.
    The clone would use 5E hit points per leve so the characters would have more HP up front (1 HD+ con modifier vs 4E's fixed amount or fixed amount+ con) Leaders can use a bonus action to trigger them a'la 4E minor healing.
    If you're cloning 4e, there's no reason to do 3e/5e style ballooning hps from adding CON mod every level. Hp scaling like that was both atavism, and desperation for some feeling of advancement after committing to BA. Neither would be called for.
    Last edited by Tony Vargas; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 05:22 PM.
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  3. #243
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    @Tony Vargas, @Zardnaar

    5e long rest grants complete healing PLUS hitdice. What if a long rest only gives hitdice? Thus someone who is fresh (unbloodied) can spend hitdice in the form of second-winds. But someone who is injured or exhausted must spend the hitdice immediately to recover, thus is more vulnerable to further damage from future battles.



    @Tony Vargas, @Garthanos, and others

    Personally, I love the 5e proficiency bonus, and feel it more than adequately addresses the 4e half-level bonus.

    Student Tier
    Levels 1-4 (Proficiency +2)

    Heroic Tier
    Levels 5-12 (Proficiency +3, +4)

    Paragon Tier
    Levels 13-20 (Proficiency +5, +6)

    Epic Tier
    Levels 21-24 (Proficiency +7, also allows ability scores to improve beyond 20)

    Moreover the Epic Tier can come with an Epic Destiny, becoming ‘Immortal’ by various methods.



    5e feats include certain ones that are a ‘half feat’ plus a +1 ability score improvement. It is easy to equate smaller 5e feats as one or two half feats. I consider 4 skill proficiencies to be worth one half feat. Minor traits like Elf Trance are worth one skill proficiency. In some settings, languages matter, and if so, they might be worth a skill proficiency. Together light and medium armors proficiency equals 1 skill, and heavy armor prerequiring light and medium armor, is worth an other skill. A cantrip seems worth two skills, or something like that. Anyway, 5e makes it easy to calibrate and balance 4e-style feats as ‘half feats’.

    Regarding background, I am open to the suggestion that like a 4e Theme, it might add a thematic half feat. Backgrounds also work well to elaborate various facets of a subrace. I would like to see ‘Background feats’ become allocated at every certain number of levels while leveling. The high-level Background feats can grant access to the more powerful capabilities of particular subrace or player-character monster, including flight, invisibility, or so on.

    I am especially fond of swapping race traits and class features and, if any, background feats or half feats. Such swaps help retain balance while also allowing players more customization.
    Last edited by Yaarel; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 05:20 PM.

  4. #244
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    At this point I believe many here believe it is doable in principle. We just disagree on how. How about we make it a challenge? NaNoWriMo Style? (Ok, not exactly that). We establish an start point and an end point (could be two weeks, could be a month). The challenge, to write a clone using OGC, four races, four classes, combat rules, skill rules, ten levels of feats and support, and a sample bestiary with ten monsters (1 per level). Then we share back and have the community vote on a poll?

  5. #245
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    Regarding multiclassing. A discussion with @Zardnaar in an other thread helped me be more open to multiclassing, even including limited-level ‘prestige classes’. A 4e ‘Paragon Path’ is exactly a prestige class that is suitable for levels 13 to 20 (or whatever). As long as a Path focuses on being alternative features, rather than strictly superior to a base class, then it seems useful.

    Many class features that are shared between several classes might work better as a Study Course (levels 1-4). Meanwhile the class itself is chosen at the Heroic tier. Thus there are four different types of classes, depending on tiers. Student Course (levels 1-4), Heroic Class (levels 5-12), Paragon Path (levels 13-20), or Epic Destiny (levels 21-24). Here a ‘base class’ means a full track of advancement, including a Study Course, Heroic Class, Paragon Path, and Epic Destiny. But it is no problem for a player to diverge and customize by picking a different Course or Path.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonSong View Post
    At this point I believe many here believe it is doable in principle. We just disagree on how. How about we make it a challenge? NaNoWriMo Style? (Ok, not exactly that). We establish an start point and an end point (could be two weeks, could be a month). The challenge, to write a clone using OGC, four races, four classes, combat rules, skill rules, ten levels of feats and support, and a sample bestiary with ten monsters (1 per level). Then we share back and have the community vote on a poll?
    I was thinking 6 monsters, a few feats, level 1 PCs with fix powers as a foundation. I could knock that outin a day.

    Tony Vargas, second wind a'la 5E fighter does scale with level with the +1. Say a clone fighter gets 9 second winds by level 10 that is 1d10+10, an average of 15.5 each. By ten its not as generous as 4Es system but as I said con bonus to levels so the fighter has more hit points up front that the 4E fighter. Monsters don't need to deal 5E levels of damage.

    I woul condense to level 20 (can always stretch it later if you're hell bent on 30), prestige class (paragon path) kicks at 8, epic kicks in at 15.

    Could even save at wills etc and just use 5E ones. Do people want to use 5E dailies as well then you just have to design the encounters. You would still only get the same amount of powers as 4E though and can cut anything that doesn't work. Saves work designing stuff, and a fireball is a fireball.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    5e long rest grants complete healing PLUS hitdice.
    Plus /half/ your HD. The slowest-recovering resource in the game.

    What if a long rest only gives hitdice?
    Then the dynamic is a bit more like the old rest-memorize-heal-rest-memorize cycle. You rest, spend HD to heal, rest again to recover HD.

    Personally, I love the 5e proficiency bonus, and feel it more than adequately addresses the 4e half-level bonus.
    Because +4 over 20 levels is almost trivial, it gets away with leaving 'untrained' skills languishing - even if you stay as incompetent as a first-level incompetent at whatever adventuring task, you can still roll high enough to matter even at high level.

    It's a very, very different feel from what you get in 3e even if cross-classed or in 4e, where competence increases with experience across the board - and from the feel 5e gets from rapidly scaling hp/damage. You get really good at killing, a bit better at things you studied as an apprentice, and stay incompetent at anything else, even if you do a fair bit of it in the course of adventuring.

    (Of course, a system like BRP handles skill development far 'better' - more realistically - than any of those.)


    Even if you decide to go with a muted bonus progressing, there should be a base-line level bonus. Like, to retain BA: Proficiency: +2; level +0 to +4 over 20 levels, just like proficiency does now, but to all d20 checks.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    Regarding multiclassing. A discussion with @Zardnaar in an other thread helped me be more open to multiclassing, even including limited-level ‘prestige classes’. A 4e ‘Paragon Path’ is exactly a prestige class that is suitable for levels 13 to 20 (or whatever). As long as a Path focuses on being alternative features, rather than strictly superior to a base class, then it seems useful.

    Many class features that are shared between several classes might work better as a Study Course (levels 1-4). Meanwhile the class itself is chosen at the Heroic tier. Thus there are four different types of classes, depending on tiers. Student Course (levels 1-4), Heroic Class (levels 5-12), Paragon Path (levels 13-20), or Epic Destiny (levels 21-24). Here a ‘base class’ means a full track of advancement, including a Study Course, Heroic Class, Paragon Path, and Epic Destiny. But it is no problem for a player to diverge and customize by picking a different Course or Path.
    I was thiniking of using prestige classes but they function as 4E Paragon paths, just a label. No MCing as such. Pretige classes kick in at 8 so level 1-7 is heroic tier, prestige tier 8-14, epic tier at 15. Knock out 4 classes level 4 with fixed powers, make 5 preconstructed PCs (2 fighters 1 can sword and board, 1 can use great weapons).

    5 PCs (Preconstucted)

    2 fighters
    1 Cleric
    1 Wizard
    1 Rogue

    You only have to design what 4 powers? Knock out 4 races (Human. Elf, Dwarf, Halfling). Tweak the 4E ones, mixing and matching with 5E. The human ability in essentials (+4 to whatever/encounter power) becomes advantage. Dwarves can second wind as a bonus action, everyone else as an action.
    Last edited by Zardnaar; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 05:38 PM.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    I was thinking 6 monsters, a few feats, level 1 PCs with fix powers as a foundation. I could knock that outin a day.

    How about two levels of support? And doing it over the weekend?
    Last edited by MoonSong; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 06:18 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zardnaar View Post
    I was thiniking of using prestige classes but they function as 4E Paragon paths, just a label. No MCing as such. Pretige classes kick in at 8 so level 1-7 is heroic tier, prestige tier 8-14, epic tier at 15. Knock out 4 classes level 4 with fixed powers, make 5 preconstructed PCs (2 fighters 1 can sword and board, 1 can use great weapons).

    5 PCs (Preconstucted)

    2 fighters
    1 Cleric
    1 Wizard
    1 Rogue

    You only have to design what 4 powers? Knock out 4 races (Human. Elf, Dwarf, Halfling). Tweak the 4E ones, mixing and matching with 5E. The human ability in essentials (+4 to whatever/encounter power) becomes advantage. Dwarves can second wind as a bonus action, everyone else as an action.
    Since 4e level 1 doesnt really happen until 5e level 5, it seems worthwhile to split up the concept of ‘class’ into separate tiers. In other words, a ‘class’ includes impactful choices, at different tiers. At level 1, the player chooses a Student Course. At level 5, the player chooses a Heroic Profession. At level 13, the player chooses a Paragon Path. At level 21, the player chooses an Epic Destiny.

    This means the Student tier is more like level zero. Low level Courses include basic fighting skills, basic stealth skills, basic casting skills, or so on. For example, Cleric is a Profession that begins at level 5. The Cleric player might have chosen a Course that relates moreso to spellcasting, such as a Healer (thus comes with extra magical abilities), while an other Cleric player might have chosen a Course that relates moreso to fighting (thus sports heavy armor and a special weapon). Both Clerics, regardless of earlier Student tier choices, would progress according to the Cleric Profession, from levels 5 to 12.

    At level 13, the Cleric chooses one from a number of Paths.

    At level 21, the player picks one from a number of Destinies.



    A core ‘base’ class comes with an advancement track, that includes a default Course, Profession, Path, and Destiny. But a player can mix-and-match these according to taste.

    4e style works well with the above approach from level 5 and up. Likewise level 0 flavors, such as Harry Potter wizard students or the kid longing to be a knight, get handled at levels 1 to 4.

    A Wizard might well come from a Student Course that specializes in swordfighting, and really only begins spellcasting at level 5.



    Student Tier
    • Course (levels 1 to 4)

    Heroic Tier
    • Profession (levels 5 to 12)

    Paragon Tier
    • Path (levels 13 to 20)

    Epic Tier
    • Destiny (levels 21 to 24)
    Last edited by Yaarel; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 06:14 PM.

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