5E How To Clone 4E Using 5E Rules - Page 26
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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post

    @Tony Vargas, @Garthanos, and others

    Personally, I love the 5e proficiency bonus, and feel it more than adequately addresses the 4e half-level bonus.
    You mean grant a general proficiency bonus -- not tied just to things you are explicitly proficient in?

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    Even if you decide to go with a muted bonus progressing, there should be a base-line level bonus. Like, to retain BA: Proficiency: +2; level +0 to +4 over 20 levels, just like proficiency does now, but to all d20 checks.
    General Proficiency which affects all d20 checks? (what about AC)?

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garthanos View Post
    You mean grant a general proficiency bonus -- not tied just to things you are explicitly proficient in?
    Personally, I like the ‘just explicitly’ part.

    But, I also like how 5e gives the FULL proficiency, to anything one later becomes proficient in. For example, if one is level 13 and gains proficiency in Stealth, the proficiency is +4. One doesnt start at the beginning with +2.

  4. #254
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    Those are some...very different level break points. Any, uh, particular reason why you're really set on 4/8/8/4 as your progression numbers? Because I guarantee people will complain about them being "weird" and not "round" numbers like multiples of 5 or 10.

    Personally, I'd fork out the "student" thing into an entirely separate progression: Novice status. Essentially, you get a radically trimmed-down starting point (possibly only having a single at-will or the like), and then you slooooooooowly build up to the level of a "proper" 1st level character with a Theme and Background. Treat it like 13A's Incremental Advance system, except you're getting things like class features, heavier armor, more HP, your first daily, your first feat, etc.

    That way, it's an opt-in system for people who want it, not an opt-out system that will confuse and frustrate at least some new players and DMs (as I have seen 5e's "well you SHOULD start at level 3+ unless you WANT a challenge" do.) And it would let us give that "zero to hero" style breathing room, rather than forcing it to be squeezed into a handful of levels. Hell, by applying the same concept, you could spool out every single level all the way to 30, allowing people to elect to only advance incrementally and in very measured, methodical pacing.

  5. #255
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    I think everybody here agrees that 4e-style Constitution is superior? So, add the SCORE at level 1, and never additional BONUS hit points. This removes low level fragility, and avoids high level hitpoint inflation.



    (Optional Variant, if players like fragile low levels: add the bonus once at each tier, at levels 1, 5, 13, 21?)

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaarel View Post
    Personally, I like the ‘just explicitly’ part.
    I dont it is exactly what I have been complaining ie about 5e having no accounting for general confidence, competence and actual bread of experience.

    When I was a kid I learned bursty and a lot in a given area but over time I have learned that the experience of my life all contributes to confidence, competence and general adaptability which I can bring to the table even when the field isn't exactly what i learned. Ie the rest is a general foundation. 5e feels like it models only how a child learns.

    In 4e the Epic Hero is better all around than he was starting out.

    In 4e generally even untrained you are significantly better at intimidating the old town Mayor.
    Last edited by Garthanos; Wednesday, 5th June, 2019 at 06:45 PM.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by EzekielRaiden View Post
    Those are some...very different level break points. Any, uh, particular reason why you're really set on 4/8/8/4 as your progression numbers? Because I guarantee people will complain about them being "weird" and not "round" numbers like multiples of 5 or 10.

    Personally, I'd fork out the "student" thing into an entirely separate progression: Novice status. Essentially, you get a radically trimmed-down starting point (possibly only having a single at-will or the like), and then you slooooooooowly build up to the level of a "proper" 1st level character with a Theme and Background. Treat it like 13A's Incremental Advance system, except you're getting things like class features, heavier armor, more HP, your first daily, your first feat, etc.

    That way, it's an opt-in system for people who want it, not an opt-out system that will confuse and frustrate at least some new players and DMs (as I have seen 5e's "well you SHOULD start at level 3+ unless you WANT a challenge" do.) And it would let us give that "zero to hero" style breathing room, rather than forcing it to be squeezed into a handful of levels. Hell, by applying the same concept, you could spool out every single level all the way to 30, allowing people to elect to only advance incrementally and in very measured, methodical pacing.
    Well, 5e is already ‘weird’. 5e tiers break at levels 1, 5, 10, and 17. In other words 4/6/6/4.

    The first tier in a 5e→4e system with levels 1 to 4 is natural, because these levels in 5e are simply too weak and too incompetent to represent a 4e ‘Heroic’ tier.

    Level 13 seems appropriate for a ‘Path’.

    It could be 4, Heroic 8, Paragon 8, and Epic 8. But Epic is still a formative design trying to be interesting, powerful, and balanced, all at the same time. So I feel committing to 4 levels of Epic is more doable than a full 8 levels.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garthanos View Post
    General Proficiency which affects all d20 checks? (what about AC)?
    Should affect save bonuses, certainly. AC kinda crawls upwards by itself, a little, though, as you get better armor.
    But, if going for 4e-ish feel under BA, yes, of course AC also. If just tweaking 5e, AC can be left to it's own devices.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by EzekielRaiden View Post
    Yeah, the abandonment of the Bloodied status/idea seems like one of the worst aspects of 5e pretending 4e mostly didn't exist. Because it was actually useful, adds almost no complexity (one very simple status) in return for a LOT of potential engagement and interest, and you don't have to track it if you don't want to. It's the definition of a nice, simple opt-in mechanic that can be used but doesn't have to be--seemingly perfect fit for the shadow of "modularity" that 5e ended up with in practice.
    The number of things this comes into in 4e was pretty extensive too.... Name:  bloodied.png
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  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garthanos View Post
    I dont it is exactly what I have been complaining ie about 5e having no accounting for general confidence, competence and actual bread of experience.

    When I was a kid I learned bursty and a lot in a given area but over time I have learned that the experience of my life all contributes to confidence, competence and general adaptability which I can bring to the table even when the field isn't exactly what i learned. Ie the rest is a general foundation. 5e feels like it models only how a child learns.

    In 4e the Epic Hero is better all around than he was starting out.

    In 4e generally even untrained you are significantly better at intimidating the old town Mayor.
    I understand what you are saying, but then adding a tier bonus plus a proficiency bonus strains the already strained bounded accuracy of 5e.

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