The MAYA Design Principle, or Why D&D's Future is Probably Going to Look Mostly Like Its Past

Imaro

Legend
So if the game sucks because the system doesn't work, it's a software error, but if it sucks because the DM got sick, it's a hardware issue?

"This new edition's not too complex, you just need to upgrade your hardware!"

It also means better or worse hardware (the DM) can oftentimes run software (Specific games) better or worse irregardless of the quality of said software.

Edit: you could even make the argument that some software is just downright incompatible with some hardware... again it doesnt really reflect on how functional or good the software is.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
It also means better or worse hardware (the DM) can oftentimes run software (Specific games) better or worse irregardless of the quality of said software.
I caught that, thus: "This new edition's not too complex, you just need to upgrade your hardware!"

But, not regardless - tight, old-fashioned-optimized code will run fast enough on a 'slow' system and fast, in spite of the optimization no longer applying, on faster hardware; sloppy code will run fast enough on the modern system, until it crashes, but it's failings will really immediately show on the older one.

(But, wow, is that a bad analogy, starts to sound downright ageist.)

And, of course, regardless of the quality of your hardware, some software is just bad. Like, just does not work as intended.
Oh, then there's malware...

Edit: you could even make the argument that some software is just downright incompatible with some hardware... again it doesnt really reflect on how functionality good the software is.
You could, but it's stretching an already dubious analogy.



But, regardless of analogy - whether you're saying the code's fine, you just need more iron; or you shouldn't have tried driving cross town if you couldn't rebuild the transmission; or the wings fell off due to pilot error; or if you didn't want to get exposed to E.coli you really should have cooked our packaged salad greens thoroughly - you can address an issue, or you can try to shift the blame for it.


RPGs get away with blaming the GM for system failings /a lot/, then they turn around and get away with taking credit for good GMing.
 
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The GM isn't /part/ of the system - neither bug nor feature - but a user of the system
Disagree. The GM is as much part of the RPG system as the rules themselves. That's what makes it an RPG, as opposed to some other kind of game or activity.

(Yes, there are now "GM-less" "RPGs" but I would argue they are either (A) actually GM-full, just spread across multiple bodies; or (B) not RPGs in the traditional sense.)

It's like you may be able to drive a car, and you may be able to change a flat, and you may be able to rebuild a transmission
Early automakers could, in fact, assume that the driver was part mechanic as well - similar to how early RPGs could assume that the GM was part game designer and tinkerer.

As both products became more mature, and more people started using them, the products themselves because less "mechanic" focused and more easy to use. Automatic transmission as the easy car example. Codified rules for almost every possible combat situation as the RPG example (as seen in 3e and 4e).

you could even make the argument that some software (game rules) is just downright incompatible with some hardware (people)
Absolutely true and not just for the GM. This is why it's important to expose yourself to lots of different rules systems (software) - so you can make an informed decision about what kinds of games you like.

again it doesnt really reflect on how functional or good the software is.
Disagree. Software has an entire discipline around it to measure and improve its "goodness" - usability / UX / HCI / whatever you want to call it.

RPG rules could also be measured in a similar way. Indeed, I think 4e doesn't get enough credit for being a much better Designed (in the UX Design sense) and Usable game than any edition of D&D, before or since.

RPGs get away with blaming the GM for system failings /a lot/, then they turn around and get away with taking credit for good GMing.
Haha, true!

"Well yeah of course the 1e initiative rules suck but any good DM had his own house rules...."
"Well yeah of course some of the 2e kits were flagrantly broken but any good DM would tweak them...."
"Well yeah of course the 4e skill challenge rules were a flaming dumpster fire(*) but any good DM would have his own way of running skill challenges...."

(*) I say this as a huge 4e lover. But sorry. Skill Challenges are f--king terrible.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Disagree. The GM is as much part of the RPG system as the rules themselves. That's what makes it an RPG, as opposed to some other kind of game or activity.
I can understand that philosophy, but I don't find it helpful when judging the quality of a given RPG. I mean, if you assume a superlative DM, all games are pretty good. If you assume a malicious DM, they're all crap.

Early automakers could, in fact, assume that the driver was part mechanic as well - similar to how early RPGs could assume that the GM was part game designer and tinkerer.
Yes! See, that analogy extends reasonably well. :)

Software has an entire discipline around it to measure and improve its "goodness" - usability / UX / HCI / whatever you want to call it.
RPG rules could also be measured in a similar way. Indeed, I think 4e doesn't get enough credit for being a much better Designed (in the UX Design sense) and Usable game than any edition of D&D, before or since.
Yeah, but if you have nowhere to feed in your punchcards, how are you supposed to play it? ;P

Seriously, though, 4e did deserve credit for functional mechanics* that were clearly & consistently presented. It just used those mechanics to deliver things that some fans took great offence at.
Like class balance.












* 'cept Skill Challenges!
(*) I say this as a huge 4e lover. But sorry. Skill Challenges are f--king terrible.
They were a perfect example of an objectively broken or dysfunctional system at release. When you designed a DMG1 Skill Challenge, you picked a difficulty, the higher the difficulty the more successes before half as many failures you needed to complete it. The problem: that actually makes the 'hardest' skill challenges a cake walk and 'easier' ones very dicey. (Nor was that the only problem, just the one that was unarguably borked.)
It took like three iterations to get SCs banged into a worthwhile shape - sure, a smart DM (like our own Stalker0) could spot the problem and fix it, and once the number of failures was fixed, it was /functional/ just in need of a lot of DM contribution to make it fun - but, by the time it was decent, the rest of the game was getting the Essentials treatment...
 
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Imaro

Legend
I caught that, thus: "This new edition's not too complex, you just need to upgrade your hardware!"

But, not regardless - tight, old-fashioned-optimized code will run fast enough on a 'slow' system and fast, in spite of the optimization no longer applying, on faster hardware; sloppy code will run fast enough on the modern system, until it crashes, but it's failings will really immediately show on the older one.

(But, wow, is that a bad analogy, starts to sound downright ageist.)

And, of course, regardless of the quality of your hardware, some software is just bad. Like, just does not work as intended.
Oh, then there's malware...

You could, but it's stretching an already dubious analogy.



But, regardless of analogy - whether you're saying the code's fine, you just need more iron; or you shouldn't have tried driving cross town if you couldn't rebuild the transmission; or the wings fell off due to pilot error; or if you didn't want to get exposed to E.coli you really should have cooked our packaged salad greens thoroughly - you can address an issue, or you can try to shift the blame for it.


RPGs get away with blaming the GM for system failings /a lot/, then they turn around and get away with taking credit for good GMing.

Eh...IMO most analogies are dubious... especially when taken to silly extremes.
 


Imaro

Legend
RPG rules could also be measured in a similar way. Indeed, I think 4e doesn't get enough credit for being a much better Designed (in the UX Design sense) and Usable game than any edition of D&D, before or since.

I'd definitely be interested in why you think that 4e's game design was better than any other edition... whether you think said design made it a better ttrpg as opposed to just a better game and what user criteria is being used to determine this. Also if it is objectively better than every other edition why is 5e doing so much better... why is Pathfinder doing so much better? By better I mean increasing and/or maintaining its user base?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'd definitely be interested in why you think that 4e's game design was better than any other edition... whether you think said design made it a better ttrpg as opposed to just a better game and what user criteria is being used to determine this.
IDK, if it's all subjective (and you know we'll circle back to that in the end), does his reasoning or parameters really matter to you? You opinion won't have to change.

But the criteria he used - and I can't quite agree with - was UX, "User Experience." Now, admittedly, a lot of the folks who had the harshest criticisms of 4e were not complaining about the user experience, having never used nor experienced it, but even so, you can't reasonably discount an established user base from that criteria, it's just not realistic(pi).
If it was just the experience of /new/ users, sure. IMX (and I ran intro games for new players a lot), 4e delivered a much better first-play experience than other editions of D&D (though that's not a stunning accomplishment - D&D isn't the first game for so many players because it's a good introduction, but simply because they'd heard of it). But that's too limited a criteria to be useful, especially in the business sense, because a technically less dysfunctional game is not automatically going to move books, especially not on that strength, alone...

Also if it is objectively better than every other edition why is 5e doing so much better...
So you /would/ accept an /ad populum/ argument as proof a game was better?
why is Pathfinder doing so much better? By better I mean increasing and/or maintaining its user base?
Well, they're in print. Hard to sell books you're not publishing.
And, 5e is riding both a renaissance in tabletop gaming, and an 80s comeback. Really, anything with 'D&D' on the cover would be doing pretty well 'bout now - so long as no faction of the established fanbase was actively campaigning against it (and that's the rub, because it's doubtful any version of D&D /other than/ 5e could have managed that feat, after the edition war, and, unlike the dubious laurels of having technically less effdup mechanics, that actually /is/ an accomplishment).
 
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Imaro

Legend
IDK, if it's all subjective (and you know we'll circle back to that in the end), does his reasoning or parameters really matter to you? You opinion won't have to change.

But the criteria he used - and I can't quite agree with - was UX, "User Experience." Now, admittedly, a lot of the folks who had the harshest criticisms of 4e were not complaining about the user experience, having never used nor experienced it, but even so, you can't reasonably discount an established user base from that criteria, it's just not realistic(pi).
If it was just the experience of /new/ users, sure. IMX (and I ran intro games for new players a lot), 4e delivered a much better first-play experience than other editions of D&D (though that's not a stunning accomplishment - D&D isn't the first game for so many players because it's a good introduction, but simply because they'd heard of it). But that's too limited a criteria to be useful, especially in the business sense, because a technically less dysfunctional game is not automatically going to move books, especially not on that strength, alone...

Well, they're in print. Hard to sell books you're not publishing.
And, 5e is riding both a renaissance in tabletop gaming, and an 80s comeback. Really, anything with 'D&D' on the cover would be doing pretty well 'bout now - so long as no faction of the established fanbase was actively campaigning against it (and that's the rub, because it's doubtful any version of D&D /other than/ 5e could have managed that feat, after the edition war, and, unlike the dubious laurels of having technically less effdup mechanics, that actually /is/ an accomplishment).

Hey, Tony... no offense but I kind of know your stance and can usually guess ( in the ballpark at least) your answers to anything 4e related. Which is to say I was genuinely interested in a different viewpoint.
 


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