Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game

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Michele

Villager
This is the worst take.

Start with the basics; as soon as you start comparing "Not being allowed to DM at a convention" with slavery and human sacrifice (?!) something has gone terribly wrong.

If the point of social ostracism is that it's good because it's old, then verifying whether this claim is true by comparing it to other old stuff is nothing shocking.
You'd need to make a better point for ostracism to be good, other than it being old.

Mary tells me that the reason she is divorcing Stan is because Stan gave her an STD that he got on a business trip to Thailand. So I shun Stan, because, dude. Does Stan get due process? Nope.

Several problems here.
The first is, as mentioned by me upthread, that it is one thing doing this with people you know, as, in your example, Mary and Stan. Since you know them, you'll be able to assess every factor, including the reliability of Mary and the likelihood of Stan doing that thing. But here we're not talking about people you directly know. We're not talking about villagers in a small village, where everyone knows everybody and secrets are difficult to keep. We're talking about you taking decisions on the "word" of someone you don't know, about someone you don't know.

Secondly, imagine indeed that it is Stan who is your friend since childhood, and Mary his wife you don't know all that well. Wouldn't you talk with Stan before terminating your friendship? I would.

Also, I find it surprising that at this time in the history of the Internet, in which everyone is well aware of the dangers of fake news, there is no thought spent, with regard to this practice, as to the possibility that these phenomena get manipulated. Nor is this a "new" development. I'm sure you'll dispense me from providing the historical examples.

And finally, you're winning easily by choosing actions and behaviors we can all easily agree are deplorable. The thing with social ostracism is that it's driven by the majority - or, even, by the loudest minority, deciding what is right and what is wrong. And neither are always right.
 

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DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
I understand that some of these concepts are difficult for people to grasp...

... but unless we're talking about criminal penalties, there's no reason to talk about "due process". The very concept of due process is based on the tremendous amount of harm the State can inflict compared to an annual gaming convention.

And unless the poor, suffering... alleged sex pest... has been hanged by the neck until dead, dead, dead comparing his plight to that of European witches and freed Blacks in the American South is really distasteful.

I mean... let's all of us take a mental accounting of the various social activities we engage in, and the organizations that organize them.

Let's take for granted that his side of the story was 100% legit. According to his version of events... is there any organization you work with that wouldn't cut you loose if you made the same mistake? If you told that story to your clients while trying to close a contract? If you shared it with your pastor and his family at a church picnic?

There were no children present at the table, but there were children at the con. Would anyone worried about due process for this DM actually want him to be running games at a convention you brought your children to? Would you want him running a game for them?

I think there should be a process to allow him back into the Expo, and the other cons he's banned from-- as I mentioned earlier-- but for now, the absolute best and necessary action is an immediate and indefinite ban. It frankly baffles me that there is any single person (except perhaps himself) that is seriously arguing otherwise.
 

Also, I find it surprising that at this time in the history of the Internet, in which everyone is well aware of the dangers of fake news, there is no thought spent, with regard to this practice, as to the possibility that these phenomena get manipulated. Nor is this a "new" development. I'm sure you'll dispense me from providing the historical examples.

And finally, you're winning easily by choosing actions and behaviors we can all easily agree are deplorable. The thing with social ostracism is that it's driven by the majority - or, even, by the loudest minority, deciding what is right and what is wrong. And neither are always right.

My thoughts on this are the game sounds like a very odd thing to run at a con. That said the two news reports I saw on it, looked very poorly handled (like they were primarily relying on a handful of tweets and not investigating the matter and interviewing everyone they could who was involved). I think Cons can do what they want, and if they think he is a problem GM, they can remove him. Not having been there, not really going to cons myself, and not knowing anyone involved, I don't really see how I can get much of a window into what happened beyond some gut reactions. It looks like he could have been a jerk or it could have been a misunderstanding.

I do think there is a danger in public shaming, and in allowing our opinions of events to be driven by large numbers of people quickly and urgently forming opinions online. I don't think I have developed a very strong opinion on this event myself yet, and I probably won't unless it becomes immediately relevant to me. But I do think people would be wise in these moments to take some time, and not feel like they have to form a judgment right away. Especially those of us who are not immediately involved and have no real actual say in the matter.

I have seen mention of the geek social fallacies. This is really besides the topic, but I have never felt particularly comfortable with how that gets handled by people in the gaming community. There is truth to the idea that you shouldn't let people just do whatever they want and not say anything. At the same time, a lot of times it seems like it gets used as a justification for cruelty. And I think geeks in general have a hard time striking a balance between over and undereaction.

Generally I am pretty uneasy about a lot of the reactions and movements I've seen in gaming lately. It has really lessened my interest in the community and caused me to step further away from it. I think we would all benefit from getting less caught up in the latest controversy and being a little slower to react, spend more time thinking through what we are seeing before reaching a judgement.

I do get this isn't a criminal trial or anything. But these kinds of storms also do have very real impacts on peoples lives, and at the end of the day everyone involved is real human being. This person may have done something wrong. They may also have been misunderstood or very badly read the temperature of the room (and it is also possible people playing overeacted or misjudged). I think the people best positioned to deal with it are those present at the con. The further away you get from that, especially as the event becomes a proxy for other issues in the gaming community, I think the harder it becomes to assess.
 

Catulle

Hero
Let's take for granted that his side of the story was 100% legit. According to his version of events... is there any organization you work with that wouldn't cut you loose if you made the same mistake? If you told that story to your clients while trying to close a contract? If you shared it with your pastor and his family at a church picnic?

By this point, I'm pretty comfortable taking away the impression that the GM has tripped over his own concatenation of lies (what he did, what was said, that a recording existed that totally exonerated him you guys) to the point that muddying the water is the very best he can hope to do now, and this confirms UKGE (and the wider con circuit) being best shot of him.
 
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I

Immortal Sun

Guest
If the point of social ostracism is that it's good because it's old, then verifying whether this claim is true by comparing it to other old stuff is nothing shocking.
You'd need to make a better point for ostracism to be good, other than it being old.
You've been running with this made up mockery of what I wrote since you first responded to me and it precisely why I didn't continue to engage with you back there. Because the problem I'm having with you is that you're assuming you know what I wrote without actually reading the words I typed into my post.

My argument was that social shaming was not a new development. Not that it was inherently good or inherently bad. Only that a lot of folks cry wolf that the internet and social media have developed some kind of new social WMD and they really haven't. The system may be more wide-spread than before and faster, but it's still the same system. We haven't created some kind of new monster or let some proverbial genie out of the bottle.

I'm not going to dig back through the thread and quote myself to prove it, that's on you, especially since you didn't bother to read it in the first place I suspect you'd not read it a second time anyway.
 

ajevans

Explorer
Read the freaky blog. from the blog.
******
What we don’t need is people spreading wild rumour and supposition, consider that I’ve had more than twenty people contact me, both at the show and afterwards, saying that they’d splashed the name of the GM out there, so as to make sure that they could never do it again…
*****
Twelve of those people had the wrong name…
So 12 out of the 20+ people HAD the WRONG NAME. So we have up to 12 GMS who have been slandered. Again What happens when a Con uses BAD SOURCE information to Ban a GM. And announces the ban.

I think what happened with that was the following:

1. Twitter describes incident in a Tales from the Flood game, not naming GM.
2. UK Expo bans GM, but doesn't name him, and then in the background deletes all his games off the system.
3. People go on the UKGE website, search the Tales from the Flood - it brings up the other GM running and they think it must be him as that's the only game that's listed for Tales from the Flood.
 


Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
So, you know that old saw about how when people see the phrase "political correctness" and immediately replace it in their minds with "treating others with respect"?

I've started doing this similar thing where I replace phrases like "mob mentality" and "internet outrage" with "social accountability" and it really brings the overblown hysterics into full view (which is fairly ironic, now that I think about)
 

5ekyu

Hero
If the point of social ostracism is that it's good because it's old, then verifying whether this claim is true by comparing it to other old stuff is nothing shocking.
You'd need to make a better point for ostracism to be good, other than it being old.



Several problems here.
The first is, as mentioned by me upthread, that it is one thing doing this with people you know, as, in your example, Mary and Stan. Since you know them, you'll be able to assess every factor, including the reliability of Mary and the likelihood of Stan doing that thing. But here we're not talking about people you directly know. We're not talking about villagers in a small village, where everyone knows everybody and secrets are difficult to keep. We're talking about you taking decisions on the "word" of someone you don't know, about someone you don't know.

Secondly, imagine indeed that it is Stan who is your friend since childhood, and Mary his wife you don't know all that well. Wouldn't you talk with Stan before terminating your friendship? I would.

Also, I find it surprising that at this time in the history of the Internet, in which everyone is well aware of the dangers of fake news, there is no thought spent, with regard to this practice, as to the possibility that these phenomena get manipulated. Nor is this a "new" development. I'm sure you'll dispense me from providing the historical examples.

And finally, you're winning easily by choosing actions and behaviors we can all easily agree are deplorable. The thing with social ostracism is that it's driven by the majority - or, even, by the loudest minority, deciding what is right and what is wrong. And neither are always right.
Honestly, I dont see this world you see where "there is no thought spent, with regard to this practice, as to the possibility that these phenomena get manipulated. "

Seems to me in the case in question there was a lot more than just fake news then mob rage pillary going on.

If one wants to take the pulpit about the dangers of fake news, mob rule, knee jerk justice etc etc etc it seems odd to do so for a case where there was an investigation and then actions taken.

Tagging this agenda to cases where it seems to really not apply seems to serve yo diminish the actual case being discussed *and* the cases when the fake-rage is an issue.
 

HJFudge

Explorer
Theres a lot of talk about how we should be careful about jumping to conclusions based on second hand accounts.

I think there IS a danger in leaning too hard into the 'Internet Outrage Machine' and simply automatically believing anything negative said about someone else. I think that lives CAN be ruined due to false accusations that get picked up by social media and spread like wildfire.

However, this is not one of those cases. This is not one of those cases where the facts aren't in full view for all to see. I saw the initial news article. I read the report from the man investigating what happened. I even watched/read the accused GM's defense. This isn't a case of me jumping on a band wagon. I weighed the reports available and I made a decision on whom I consider to be telling the truth in this situation.

Also, as has been mentioned before, this isnt a case where someone needs a full trial. The burden of proof and other legal rights simply do not apply. I am free, as is everyone, to make their own judgments on the situation. I think the Con did EXACTLY the right thing. He was removed and banned. It heartens me that they took the issue seriously and addressed the problem swiftly.

Why are we arguing hypotheticals here? Yes. I agree with you: People SHOULD take a moment to get the facts before they rush to judgment. Thats the thing though: WE DID. What more do you want here? This is an example of Social Shaming doing its job: Making people aware of a bad actor and removing them from the ability to harm others in public venues.
 

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