D&D 5E Improving Two-Weapon Fighting

Fenris-77 said:

This is really the key to this whole idea IMO, I agree that Dex probably should have a -X/+x option, or at least something like it. I think the Champion would be a good test though. If you're fishing for crits you might actually want a reduced chance to hit and a reroll, although advantage does already have that mostly covered. I'd be interested to see if TWF with out permanent advantage works well for crits. You crunch it, I'll read it.

Click to expand...

I'm still running some numbers, and the numbers go up and down a little based on the target's AC, but generally the DW Champ 15 has about a 45% chance to crit per attack, and over a 90% chance to get at least one crit. A DW Champion/Rogue might do some really good damage!

Edit: Ehh, Champion DW with Elven Accuracy still does less damage that a standard GWM Champion. It is close, though. It benefits more from things like Hex or Hunter's mark, too.

Fenris-77 said:

I would probably prefer to have TWF use something other than -X/+X, just for variety's sake, but it's probably way easier to balance when you keep the mechanic the same. I'd rather see something with combo attacks, but I haven't had a great idea about how to make that work.

Click to expand...

Yea, that would be really cool. Something like the Rend that got mentioned earlier might work. The general problem with a combo approach is that it overly rewards luck streaks, so you end up with a low floor of damage and a really high ceiling. My current approach does the opposite, it increases overall damage by raising the floor, and slightly raising the ceiling.

I'd like to take another look at getting it to work, though.

TwoSix said:

DW: 2 attacks x [ 0.6975 hit rate x [4.5 (LS average) +4 (Str) + 2 (rage) + 5 (DW)] + 0.3025 (chance to proc followup attack) x 0.6975 hit rate x [4.5 (LS average) + 2 (rage) + 5 (DW)] ]

Click to expand...

This bit seems to be incorrect. You should fully calculate the probability before applying the damage. The calculation for each attack in the Attack action should be (1 - (1 - 0.6975)^2)) * 15.5) or 0.91 * 15.5 = 14.08 so the damage is (2x 14.08) + 8.02 =36.12 eDPR. And yes, Gaudere's Law probably does apply.

BTW if you really want to cheese out, run the numbers for the 11th level Paladin with one level each in Fighter and Barbarian.

Suggestions: the re-roll be made without Advantage and only once per turn.

BTW pity the poor Duellist with a shield and spear and Shield Mastery and Polearm Mastery. Either she uses the Bonus Action to gain Advantage or for the butt attack given by PAM. All for - combat-wise - a base of 1d6 + 2 damage (2d6 + 4 at 5th level) and +2 AC. It really shows the power of damage adds.

Assuming your baseline accuracy of 65% the 16 Str 5th level Duellist with SM and PAM gets (2 x ((1d6 + 2 + 3) * .65)) + ((1d4 + 2 + 3) *.65) or 2 x (8.5 * .65) + (7.5 *.65) = 15.925 damage. Apply advantage from SM and damage drops to (2x ((1 - (.35 ^2)) * (1d6 + 2 +3)) = 14.92. Note that she does in an entire round roughly what the Barbarian does in one attack. And the second calculation assumes that Advantage is successfully given, so average damage will actually be less.

I don't have time at the moment. But someone might want to evaluate these changes.

Move the mod damage to offhand attack to Dual wielder feat
Create a new -5/+10 feat for Dual Wielding
TWF style now does a scaling damage bonus per attack action attack.

Maybe +1 at 1, +2 at 2, and +3 at 3.

Do we want both a -5/+10 and scaling damage? That seems like too much. I like the scaling damage idea as a representation of combo hits, but maybe the +/- feat should be -5/+5 at that point?

How to word the scaling damage rule is important too. Is is going to be on consecutive hits, or just total hits?

Fenris-77 said:

Do we want both a -5/+10 and scaling damage? That seems like too much. I like the scaling damage idea as a representation of combo hits, but maybe the +/- feat should be -5/+5 at that point?

How to word the scaling damage rule is important too. Is is going to be on consecutive hits, or just total hits?

Click to expand...

Then youve not done the math. You just seeing big bonuses and screaming.

My preliminary results results show that this change puts twf in the ballpark of a gwf when they both pick the style. (In all tiers)

if he takes the new dial wielded feat it puts him him in the ballpark of a spear using polearm master in all tiers

if he takes the dual wielded and -5/+10 feat I think he will be in the ball park of a pwn and GWM using pc.

Please actually try to find a case where this change appear to much

You mentioned a couple of pages ago that you liked twosix's implementation better so I thought that's what you were talking about but with scaling damage and -5/+10 tacked on. I'm not sure where you mentioned exactly how you envisioned that scaling damage working either, so I don't really have a model to run numbers on even if I wanted to.

I'm not questioning any of the individual ideas in question, or your preliminary results, just how they fit together and which ideas are actually a part of the model you're talking about. There have been a lot of different ideas and variations tossed around, and keeping them all straight is a lot harder when you're just reading them and not doing the actual number crunching. Have a little pity for those of us following along at home. I like stats and I like running numbers, but not everyone does at at the level of some of you in this thread. And don't think we (well, I) don't appreciate it.

Fenris-77 said:

You mentioned a couple of pages ago that you liked twosix's implementation better so I thought that's what you were talking about but with scaling damage and -5/+10 tacked on. I'm not sure where you mentioned exactly how you envisioned that scaling damage working either, so I don't really have a model to run numbers on even if I wanted to.

I'm not questioning any of the individual ideas in question, or your preliminary results, just how they fit together and which ideas are actually a part of the model you're talking about. There have been a lot of different ideas and variations tossed around, and keeping them all straight is a lot harder when you're just reading them and not doing the actual number crunching. Have a little pity for those of us following along at home. I like stats and I like running numbers, but not everyone does at at the level of some of you in this thread. And don't think we (well, I) don't appreciate it.

Click to expand...

Unless I note otherwise or am replying to someone about a particular idea then I’m posting a stand-alone idea.

The scaling damage is simple.

A level 1 fighter with twf style would get +1 damage to both his attacks

A level 5 fighter with twf style would get +2 damage to all his attacks.

The scaling is basically by #of attack action attacks up to 3 attacks. Sorry if that wasn’t clear

FrogReaver said:

I don't have time at the moment. But someone might want to evaluate these changes.

Move the mod damage to offhand attack to Dual wielder feat
Create a new -5/+10 feat for Dual Wielding
TWF style now does a scaling damage bonus per attack action attack.

Maybe +1 at 1, +2 at 2, and +3 at 3.

Click to expand...

Looking at the numbers more closely +3 is to much in high level play for the polearm master vs dual wielded feat case. As such thee cap should be +2 at level 5.

This is keeps the damages of the primary 3 combinations in line (about 12% variation max, not including off turn attacks)

fighting style only
fighting style + extra attack feat
fighting style + extra attack feat + -5/+10 feat

Quartz said:

This bit seems to be incorrect. You should fully calculate the probability before applying the damage. The calculation for each attack in the Attack action should be (1 - (1 - 0.6975)^2)) * 15.5) or 0.91 * 15.5 = 14.08 so the damage is (2x 14.08) + 8.02 =36.12 eDPR. And yes, Gaudere's Law probably does apply.

Click to expand...

Can't do that for this case, because the damage expression is different. Without the fighting style, the off hand damage is 11.5 avg per attack.

Quartz said:

BTW if you really want to cheese out, run the numbers for the 11th level Paladin with one level each in Fighter and Barbarian.

Click to expand...

Assuming base accuracy 65%, not counting crits, it's 52.7 > 50.0 > 45.0 for PAM/GWM > DW > GWM only.

I think I need to adjust the fighting style. I didn't really want to, but it scales too well and is too good compared to Dueling/GWF. Maybe just a flat +2 to off-hand attacks, or stat mod to off-hand attacks made during the Attack action only.

Quartz said:

Suggestions: the re-roll be made without Advantage and only once per turn.

Click to expand...

Not allowing the reroll to gain advantage is something I've been considering. The thing with Advantage any my DW rules is that it's inheritly limiting; the accuracy you gain on the follow-up attack is mostly canceled out by the decreased chance of needing the follow-up attack.

And the issue with once per turn is that it doesn't scale with multiple attacks. Dueling style, GWF style, SS, and GWM all increase in value linearly with number of attacks, I'd like a DW fix to do the same.

Quartz said:

BTW pity the poor Duellist with a shield and spear and Shield Mastery and Polearm Mastery. Either she uses the Bonus Action to gain Advantage or for the butt attack given by PAM. All for - combat-wise - a base of 1d6 + 2 damage (2d6 + 4 at 5th level) and +2 AC. It really shows the power of damage adds.

Click to expand...

Oh, I do. I wouldn't mind seeing an offensive feat that could synergize with Shield Master to give SnB some punch. I mean, it needs less punch in exchange for its higher AC, but it should be like a 20-25% decrease, not 50% or more.

Quartz said:

Assuming your baseline accuracy of 65% the 16 Str 5th level Duellist with SM and PAM gets (2 x ((1d6 + 2 + 3) * .65)) + ((1d4 + 2 + 3) *.65) or 2 x (8.5 * .65) + (7.5 *.65) = 15.925 damage. Apply advantage from SM and damage drops to (2x ((1 - (.35 ^2)) * (1d6 + 2 +3)) = 14.92. Note that she does in an entire round roughly what the Barbarian does in one attack. And the second calculation assumes that Advantage is successfully given, so average damage will actually be less.

Click to expand...

Hmm. Let's test this add to Shield Master: "When you make an attack with a one-handed melee weapon while using a shield in your other hand, you may take a -5 penalty to hit to add +10 to damage." Let's also ignore JC's terrible ruling on the Shield Master bonus action. Let's boost Str to 18, since he doesn't need PAM.

Assuming you shove prone for advantage, the spear damage is now 1d6+2+4+10 or 19.5 avg, and accuracy becomes 69.75%. (Was 65%, boosts to 70%, 70%-25% with advantage becomes 69.75%) So damage is now 2 x 0.6975 x 19.5 = 27.2 eDPR. It'll come down a bit because the shove has a variable success rate. Probably a little too good for a fighter, a GWM fighter does roughly equal damage since it doesn't have a reliable source of advantage.

I'd love to see another mechanic besides the -X/+X mechanic for damage boosts, if there is one.

FrogReaver said:

I don't have time at the moment. But someone might want to evaluate these changes.

Move the mod damage to offhand attack to Dual wielder feat
Create a new -5/+10 feat for Dual Wielding
TWF style now does a scaling damage bonus per attack action attack.

Maybe +1 at 1, +2 at 2, and +3 at 3.

Click to expand...

That's not bad. It puts the "+mod on BA attacks" back into feat territory, to go along with PAM and XBE.

Moving the -X/+Y into a separate feat would make it so you need 2 feats for every combination of -X/+Y and a reliable BA attack, which is appealing. (PAM/GWM, SS/XBE, DW/New feat)

Maybe for the scaling bonus, do something that gives a die bonus, rather than a flat increase? A die bonus makes it more interesting for rangers, and attractive for a rogue dip. Something like "When you make an attack while wielding a one-handed weapon in each hand, treat any 1 you roll as the maximum result instead." That gives a (N-1/N) increase per die, or slightly less than 1 per die.

Edit: Just checking the difference between PAM and this DW feat idea for Barbarians and Fighters, they're equal DPR in the 2 attack/1 BA scenario for barbarians w/o styles. GWM is still better then both on its own, though, unless accuracy is really low.

I liked my idea, but I have to say this idea is pretty elegant too. The imbalance between different fighting styles is almost entirely driven by feats, so using feats to fix it makes sense.

Edit2: Missed a major point there...the BA attack needs to scale in a featless game. Maybe that would be the place to add the follow-up on a miss rule? Might be too strong. Have to check.

Edit3: Nah, that doesn't solve the "how to make the BA worthwhile" aspect. Hmm. Maybe this: "While wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, your bonus action attack does +2 damage for every attack you've made that has hit this turn."