D&D 4E Should I play 4e?

Tony Vargas

Legend
They had their popularity, sure. Which is why it was strictly my experience as to why 4E began to run dry for me towards the end (despite getting several years of great enjoyment to start with). A lot of the spells that allowed to creativity that didn't snap to the grid felt like they were missing from our arsenals after a while. But if other folks never experienced that stuff previously then there's no surprise they didn't find it missing, which is also why I don't fault them for not feeling the same way.
Oh, I certainly /experienced/ those "other spells" that had effects based more on player creativity and DM fiat than mechanics. Just not such consistently positive experiences that I missed them as much.

But, on a first read-through, 4e definitely left me with the impression it was going to get old. Only a few power choices at each level? Surely each class is only good for one play-through? But, it turned out a 'play-through' actually did go through to level 30 in a practical sense, not just a theoretical one, and power choices went from a handful to a dozen or more, and it turned out even characters with very similar build choices could end up playing (and RPing) quite differently... so that fear never materialized.

While true, the part I find disappointing is that it's basically a weapon attack re-skinned as magic.
I mean, that's a /little/, a very little, closer to true in 5e than in 4e, but still not true at all. Firebolt doesn't use a weapon - 'weapon' isn't a keyword anymore, so that has less mechanical meaning, but it still has meaning beyond just the 'skin.' Firebolt doesn't use ammunition. Firebolt does, well, fire damage. Those differences seem to add up to it being, well, different.

For that reason I find cantrips that require a save just a bit more interesting (even though monsters pretty much never seem to fail Dex saves versus Sacred Flame.)
A save is still a binary pass/fail check on a d20, just rolled by the other guy. Mathematically & conceptually, Sacred Flame is an attack. Calling it a save is mostly just mechanical sleight of hand, adding complexity for the sake of an illusion of difference. (I say mostly because a ranged attack suffers disadvantage if used in melee, while a spell forcing a save works perfectly when cast in melee … hey, speaking of things that 'don't feel right,' casting in melee? perfectly safe? perfectly effective?)

Which, again, is the reason I was comparing it to martial "powers". I just never find it particularly satisfying when the same underlying mechanic is reskinned as something different. You can take an attack roll and damage type and call it "magic" but it doesn't really feel that way to me.
Is that just a long association with weapons using at-will, unvarying, bored-resignation-inducing attack rolls, and with spells using daily, fire-and-forget, frustration-inducing 'saves?'

I mean, it makes sense. Long association will do that, psychologically.

So in the classic game, things like rolled attacks from swords, lance charges, the wand of orcus, arrows, shadows, and the like felt non-magical. While things that forced saves, like Charm Person, Fireball, poison needle traps, scorpions, and psionic blast, felt definitively magical. But, in 3e, more spells, like Ray of Enfeeblement and Disintegrate also stopped feeling magical as they increasingly took attack rolls. And, 4e, of course, was anathema, with all attack spells taking attack rolls, even if they did still inflicts half damage on a miss, nothing was magical, at all, not even the classics like Magic Missile, Fireball & Sleep, heck, even Dispel Magic became non-magical. 5e un-does some of that, of course, but enough?

That's interesting. If you extrapolate that argument, that's an argument that the modular resolution systems in 1e and 2e are actually a more pleasing system. That's not a dismissal;
It's definitely not a dismissal. "modular resolution system" is certainly a very polite way of putting it in the case of 1e. ;)

But, it's true that there were a lot of resolution systems and sub-systems and sub-sub-systems back in the day. Individual spells would often have their own rules. I mean, there are saves vs death and saves vs Spells and "disbelieving" but is any/all of that good enough for Phantasmal Killer? NO! it must have it's own special roll-under INT save! And that's not, like, a proud nail or anything, there were LOTS of spells that had unique resolution mechanics in their descriptions, often a little difficult to tease out from the flavor text.

And, 1e had different systems for pummeling, grappling, and overbearing vs using weapons, and even individual weapons were differentiated by detailed little rules - like space required, length, [/b]weapon-vs-armor-type adjustments[/b], and speed factor - without which any two weapons that did the same amount of damage, like, the battle axe and scimitar, for instance, would have been "the same."

...hmm, look at this corner I've painted myself into: "IF YOU DIDN'T USE WEAPON-VS-ARMOR ADJUSTMENTS IN 1E YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT ANYTHING IN ANY OTHER EDITION BEING SAMEY! Because you made scimitars and battle axes the same... ::sigh:: ...oh the injustice."
 
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HJFudge

Explorer
How something 'feels' to one person will 'feel' differently to others, based on how it is presented at the table.

Table presentation and how its sold by the DM and how the players treat a concept is 100% more important than the concept itself.
 

Yes, sir. I didn't mean for it to turn into an edition war. I apoligize.

Oh, dear innocent forum user, how precious it is that you never had to see a real edition war.

I remember ten years ago... sometimes I woke up shrieking having dreamed about people wishing other people death for liking "a dumb, overcomplicated, miniatures tabletop game, that is basically WoW for small kids!" Sometimes still a bodiless voice haunts me: "You can't roleplay in 4e, you just caaaaaaaaaaaan't!!!"

This thread here in contrast is one of the most civilised and nice exchanges about 4e I've seen. :)

So, rejoice, all of you 4E fans and keep on gaming! Blessed be Heinsoo (praise be unto His name)!
 



The only thing you do in the game, all the way back to Chainmail and Gary's plastic bags, is "roll dice and do integer math", if you want to reductio ad absurdem it.

But you can present "roll dice, do math" a lot of different ways.

It's almost like System Matters (tm).

So now in this thread we've recapitulated the 4e edition war *and* the GNS movement? Sweet.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'm both happy that this isn't a real edition war, and frightened by the realization that edition wars could be much worse than this. :(:(:(

Haha, this is nothing. This wouldn’t even be a conflict if it wasn’t for us shell-shocked edition war veterans being so jumpy. The edition war wasn’t called that for nothing, battles occurred in every corner of the internet where gaming was discussed. And they were vicious. The absolute most civil discussion of 4e you could have hoped for at the time was one where people were “only” passive-aggressively implying each other’s preferences were stupid and wrong, instead of actively and directly attacking each other.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
The only thing you do in the game, all the way back to Chainmail and Gary's plastic bags, is "roll dice and do integer math", if you want to reductio ad absurdem it.

But you can present "roll dice, do math" a lot of different ways.

It's almost like System Matters (tm).

So now in this thread we've recapitulated the 4e edition war *and* the GNS movement? Sweet.

No surprise, GNS was always just edition covert ops.
 


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