Let's Talk About THAC0

Morrus · Jun 6, 2019

Umbran said:
Standing by un-measurable assertions is easy.

Sure. I wasn’t setting myself a challenge.

Greenstone.Walker · Jun 6, 2019

Morrus said:
So instead of adding a number to your d20, you simply deduct a number from your THAC0. Same maths, just minus instead of plus.

There's your problem right there.

Subtraction is harder than addition. Lower things being better is the opposite to convention. THAC0's bad rep was well earned.

In 2E I replaced it with a system where armour classes started at 10 and went up and you rolled a d20, added modifiers, and tried to get equal to or greater than the target's armour class.

Morrus · Jun 6, 2019

Greenstone.Walker said:
There's your problem right there.

Subtraction is harder than addition..

You get 10 points minus the number of people who have said that!

Gradine · Jun 6, 2019

Moreso than the maths, which as many people have pointed out (and is relevant, by the by) is a tad more complex, the reason why BAB (and especially Proficiency Bonus) is much simpler is because the numbers are right there in your class/general level up descriptions.

As opposed to figuring out your THAC0, which is buried in an entirely different part of the book from character creation, on yet another table that has it's own sort of bonkers idea of steady progression (the Priest v. Rogue progression being particularly silly).

And that's not even going into 2e's "Weapon Type vs. Armor Modifiers" table.

Morrus · Jun 6, 2019

But the thing I’m not clear on.... which is harder, addition or subtraction? Could somebody please just tell me!

Gradine · Jun 6, 2019

Morrus said:
But the thing I’m not clear on.... which is harder, addition or subtraction? Could somebody please just tell me!

This is the quality content and discourse I come here for

DEFCON 1 · Jun 6, 2019

See, the reputation I've always heard bandied about regarding THAC0 wasn't that it was "really complex"... but rather once 3E introduced ascending ACs its reputation was "My god, THAC0 was just STUPID. Why the hell did they ever do it that way in the first place?"

And this is why I have absolutely no need to ever play any version of D&D prior to 3E again. Because yes, THAC0 *is* just plain stupid and I have better things to do with my time. Hell... even when I play the original Baldur's Gates on occasion I have to bite my tongue, and the COMPUTER IS DOING THE WORK FOR ME!

lowkey13 · Jun 6, 2019

*Deleted by user*

GreyLord · Jun 6, 2019

Morrus said:
But the thing I’m not clear on.... which is harder, addition or subtraction? Could somebody please just tell me!

Similar to which is harder, multiplication or addition?

For one who has learned elementary math, they can probably multiply 2x2 as easily as they could add 2+2. They could do an exam of 100 questions of easy addition (3+4, 7+2...etc) as quickly as they could multiplication (4x8, 3x6).

However, for some multiplication will always feel harder than addition.

The same probably also applies to subtraction.

Someone even did a science project or two showing this!!!

Not that any of it should be a problem for those who were the game's intended audience, anymore than figuring out whether you had an attack of opportunity or not.

But, I do know several that never figured out how THAC0 worked (I was the DM normally, so the burden would fall on me anyways) and had gotten their university degrees!

(and the same also applies to attacks of opportunities, always was asked whether they or something else were going to get one).

Sacrosanct · Jun 6, 2019

Umbran said:
Standing by un-measurable assertions is easy. It still looks like standing by your 1974 Ford Pinto* as a great car.

*Which had a reputation for blowing up if it got rear-ended

If you're gonna use an analogy, use a correct one. D&D was one of the best RPGs back then, so you have to use a good car, not the worst. It would be like saying do I stand by my '68 Camaro. And you're darn right I do. I would fix everything myself, and it never broke down. My 17 Accord is always having wonky computer issues.