d8 Sneak Attack: Hear me out

Xeviat · Jun 8, 2019

I keep seeing TWFing rogue builds. It's crazy not to. If you have a 65% chance to hit, fighting with two weapons gives you an 87.5% chance to land a sneak attack (and with crits, you have a 94.5% chance of doing 1x sneak attack damage!; math based on getting a crit with your first hit).Now, I think a TWFing rogue has an interesting trade off in whether or not they use their off-hand to try to get a little extra damage in, or if they want to use it to disengage with their cunning action, but I feel like TWFing offers such a damage boost over using a single weapon that I haven't seen anything other than TWFing or handcrossbow (expert) rogues.I thought of a crazy way to incentivize going for a single rapier/light crossbow: what if your sneak attack damage was equal to your weapon's damage die?With a quick calculation, a rapier/light crossbow rogue would deal 81-92% of the damage a dual shortsword rogue will tend to deal (without factoring in advantage; the rapier rogue would benefit more from advantage since their first attack would be less likely to hit and thus be in less need of a follow-up attack). They're still dealing less damage, which would offer a trade off for having their bonus action free for other things.How do you think this would play out? How would you abuse it as a player?

Charlaquin · Jun 8, 2019

I don’t think the rapier needs any help. It’s already one of the best melee weapon options in the game for most characters who can use it, I don’t think incentivizing one of the few classes that favor a different weapon to use the rapier too is a positive change.

Cap'n Kobold · Jun 8, 2019

I don't have an issue with a D8 sneak attack when not dual-wielding. However I would not like to see it based on weapon die.
Partly because I allow any weapon to deliver a sneak attack, but mostly because I like to see weapons like daggers used.

Leatherhead · Jun 8, 2019

TWF is kind of a problem for 5e.

But if you want to level the playing field for different Rogue weapon setups (more or less), consider instead: Cunning Action can be used to grant Advantage on the Rogues next attack. Now every Rogue faces the dilemma of using their Bonus Action for damage, no matter what weapon configuration they pick.

Xeviat · Jun 8, 2019

Leatherhead said:
TWF is kind of a problem for 5e.

But if you want to level the playing field for different Rogue weapon setups (more or less), consider instead: Cunning Action can be used to grant Advantage on the Rogues next attack. Now every Rogue faces the dilemma of using their Bonus Action for damage, no matter what weapon configuration they pick.

That would be neat.

aco175 · Jun 8, 2019

Isn't advantage on one attack the same as making 2 attacks.

Cap'n Kobold · Jun 8, 2019

aco175 said:
Isn't advantage on one attack the same as making 2 attacks.

Not quite. Two attacks have the potential to both hit, both dealing damage.In the case of a Rogue, Advantage allows Sneak Attack, whereas simply making two attacks might not.

Xeviat · Jun 8, 2019

aco175 said:
Isn't advantage on one attack the same as making 2 attacks.

For a rogue, it might be. Higher single hit damage might balance against the lower chance of landing two hits.

That might work out better than upping their per hit damage.

TwoSix · Jun 8, 2019

Outside of Tier 1, I haven't really seen rogues dual-wielding. They're either using a rapier and using Booming Blade, or are doing hide + snipe with a crossbow, or have MCed with Fighter or Ranger and have 2 attacks already.

If anything, I'd like to see more incentive for a rogue to dual-wield.

Greg K · Jun 8, 2019

For my own campaign, hand crossbows will not exist and rogues (and bards) will not get proficiency in the rapier. Plus, Khaalis's Light Armor Fighter variant will be an option. A player wanting to be a corsair, duelist, swashbuckler, two-handed roguish fighter or other light/no armor fighter can take that. The Rogue will be for Assassin's, Thieves, and Swindlers that sneak attack with daggers or shortswords