d8 Sneak Attack: Hear me out

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Believe it or not, drbadwolf, a DM ruling out a certain build option is not alien or disagreeable in any way.

In fact, it is perfectly reasonable. Given the players are informed well in advance of signing up for play, of course.

Yeah, that isn’t what’s alien to me, nor did I say that it was bad. I said it’s alien to my point of view. One of the delightful things about humans is that people within the same culture, enjoying the same hobby, can have an outlook so different that hearing about it is like watching one of the non scary episodes of the Twilight Zone.

What I find alien is the idea of viewing specific mechanical options as having only one thematic interpretation. Things like only allowing multiclassing if story events or training “allow” for it in the course of the game. If the “build” is a rogue/blade singer, because that jives better with the player’s vision of the magical swashbuckler they want to make, its completely strange to me to say “no, my concept of bladesinging is that it can only represent to martial tradition of the wizards of X elven culture, so unless you convince one to train you, you can’t learn it. Also multiclassing can only be an in world thing where you learn an entirely new skill set, it can’t just represent the same thematic elements as a custom class would.”

It’s...just alien. There’s no better word for it.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think that it is the locking of specific mechanics into certain thematics that we're querying, rather than game balance/what concepts fit in the setting concerns.

Saying "No school of Swords bards in the game because I think they're unbalanced/don't like the mechanics etc" is fine.
Saying "No wandering minstrels because they don't fit the setting." or "Characters with a 'skald' concept would be from this region." is fine.

Saying "All sword-school bards are wandering minstrel types." or "All valor bard characters have a skald-type concept." is something that you seem to have implied that you're doing, and what we were concerned about.
That is where we're wondering about the agency of your players to determine their own concept.

Exactly. It’s just completely diametrically opposes to how many of us view the fundamental nature of the game.
 

Greg K

Legend
. If the “build” is a rogue/blade singer, because that jives better with the player’s vision of the magical swashbuckler they want to make, its completely strange to me to say “no, my concept of bladesinging is that it can only represent to martial tradition of the wizards of X elven culture, so unless you convince one to train you, you can’t learn it. Also multiclassing can only be an in world thing where you learn an entirely new skill set, it can’t just represent the same thematic elements as a custom class would.”
.
You are assuming that I want the magical swashbuckler-or at the least- any d&d official concept or player concept that the rules can support. I don't. I don't want magical swashbucklers. I don't want bladesinging. There are a bunch of other concepts that I don't want or are traditions belonging to a specific culture (that they may not teach to just anyone)
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You are assuming that I want the magical swashbuckler-or at the least- any d&d official concept or player concept that the rules can support. I don't. I don't want magical swashbucklers. I don't want bladesinging. There are a bunch of other concepts that I don't want or are traditions belonging to a specific culture (that they may not teach to just anyone)

You’re not trying to understand what I’m saying.

I’m not assuming anything, I used an example. Nitpicking the example doesn’t address the point.

Have fun with your game, I’m not gonna keep trying to find new ways to explain the same thing you keep ignoring or failing to understand.
 

Greg K

Legend
Saying "All sword-school bards are wandering minstrel types." or "All valor bard characters have a skald-type concept." is something that you seem to have implied that you're doing, and what we were concerned about.
That is where we're wondering about the agency of your players to determine their own concept.

The player gets to choose a culturally appropriate archetype, determine the background and goal (within in terms of the setting and the culture within where they grew up although the goals can change as they adventure and travel).

Part of what I want to do is develop specific archetypes from specific influences from historical cultures, myths, and movies that fit the setting that I want to create. There may be multiple ways to approach a concept, but I am the one that determines what best represents it both thematically and mechanically for the campaign or a culture not the player. In the process, this means my eliminating specific approaches that might have been been introduced over the editions 2e kits, 3e prestige classes and 4e including the idea that players can reskin as they see fit. This is no different than Gygax writing in a non-Dragon article that Robin Hood based characters should be done with either the Archer or Bandit class from Dragon classes rather than using the Fighter, Ranger, or a Rogue (he might have also included a hunter class that he wrote elsewhere as an option for a Robin Hood character, but I don't recall).

I am not saying that I don't allow multiple ways of approaching certain concepts. For instance, wandering minstrels in the campaigns that I run and they can be handled in multiple ways. They classic minstrel might be a rogue proficient in a musical instrument (and, maybe, history) and even a third party subclass that I am allowing. They might be also be a light armored warrior proficient in a musical instrument (and, maybe, history) and then take a third party subclass. Characters with another class that plays an instrument n might call themselves a minstrel. Any of these might also call themselves a bard or skald depending upon their culture or knowledge of the term from another culture. However, true Bards and Skalds will come from specific cultures and use the Bard class along with specific subclasses (and some tailoring of the original class). Similarly, if some rogue wants to pick up a short sword and dagger, use acrobatics, and call themselves a swashbuckler, that is fine. A fighter battlemaster can choose an appropriate fighting style, appropriate maneuvers, acrobatics, and choose not to where armor (or only light armor) and call themselves a swashbuckler. In either case, the player can discuss it with me along with the character's background to ensure it is logical for the setting. However, someone wanting to be rewarded with more benefits mechanically is taking Khaalis's light fighter class variant and an appropriate archetype whereas I am not going allow the official Swashbuckler rogue subclass as I don't like it mechanically and consider the Light armored Fighter variant as a better representation of the archetype. The same would hold true for Corsairs and other light armored fighter types.
 
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Satyrn

First Post
I don't have an issue with a D8 sneak attack when not dual-wielding. However I would not like to see it based on weapon die.
Partly because I allow any weapon to deliver a sneak attack, but mostly because I like to see weapons like daggers used.
That's what leaps out to me to as the downside to the OP's idea.

I've been playing a rogue who fights with a dagger and shield (Moderately Armored). I'm happily foregoing the 1d8 I could be getting from the rapier because of the occasional time throwing my dagger is useful. But if I was also foregoing 4d8 Sneak Attack for 4d4 . . . I'd feel rather forced to use the rapier.
 

Xeviat

Hero
That's what leaps out to me to as the downside to the OP's idea.

I've been playing a rogue who fights with a dagger and shield (Moderately Armored). I'm happily foregoing the 1d8 I could be getting from the rapier because of the occasional time throwing my dagger is useful. But if I was also foregoing 4d8 Sneak Attack for 4d4 . . . I'd feel rather forced to use the rapier.

You're definitely right. I'm liking the bonus action to gain advantage on your next attack idea as a way to help balance TWFing. It would equalize the chance of landing a sneak attack, which would largely balance things.

You'd have an 87.5% chance of landing one hit with both styles. Rapier would deal +1 damage, while short swords would have a 42.25% chance of landing both hits. Both these with a 65% base chance.

I'm also thinking about a blanket +2 to hit bonus for single one handed weapon style fighting.
 

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