Systems You'd Never Play after Reading Them

DrunkonDuty

he/him
Exalted. Just way too complicated.

Numenera. Just didn't like the setting or the system.

DnD 4 & 5. Neither appeal. 5e in particular is just leaves me going "meh."

Cyberpunk 2020. I dunno, liked the setting. Well, I like cyberpunk in general. But the system was just a bit too flavourless.

Shadowrun. Not strictly true, in that I ran a multi year campaign with Shadowrun 1e. And we had fun. But the system is a mess. I don't know how we put up with it for as long as we did. If I ever dig out my old Seattle source books again I'll run it in HERO system.
 

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This describes every book I've read in the past few years: Arcanis, Blood Dawn, Robotech (Shadow Chronicles), Traveller (Mongoose), Kromore, Shadowrun 5E, FATE, Savage Worlds, Starfinder... probably a few others that I don't remember.

It seems that every game either goes heavy into unsustainable complexity, or it turns to meta-game narrative control mechanics, or both. Playable games are few and far between.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I have to say I am one of those people who ran a Space:1889 campaign in a different system...HERO. But the major reason for that is I used the setting as a backdrop for a supers game.

For the most part, D&D 5Ed lost me in the playtest reports stage, coupled with Adventurer League threads here on ENWorld. When I finally got my hands on the books in a store? Well, that was the final nail in the coffin. 4Ed appealed to me as a player, but not as a DM. I thought it had enough good stuff for PCs for me to enjoy playing it. 5Ed didn’t even grab me that way.
 


DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
Still something of an open wound for me, but Gamma World d20.

Shadowrun 5e. I never used 4e for an actual Shadowrun game, but I've never used 5e for anything.
 

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
PF2. Easy answer.
Ouch.

This describes every book I've read in the past few years: Arcanis, Blood Dawn, Robotech (Shadow Chronicles), Traveller (Mongoose), Kromore, Shadowrun 5E, FATE, Savage Worlds, Starfinder... probably a few others that I don't remember.

It seems that every game either goes heavy into unsustainable complexity, or it turns to meta-game narrative control mechanics, or both. Playable games are few and far between.
What game(s) are playable, in your opinion? Because I am interested in games that aren't too complex or that involve narrative control. Retro Clones?
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
And I'm going to stop there, because there are a ton of games I could add to my list, but I was afraid I would start a firestorm of controversy by writing negative reviews of them.

That's the entire point of this thread!

I'll bring up another one: basically anything related to OSR.

Ya'll realize how much better we've gotten at game design in the past four decades, right?

I'll acknowledge that part of it is, for me at least, guilt by association (though I'm sure there are plenty of fine people who play or even produce OSR), but the much bigger part of it is... we really have gotten way better at game design. I once read through LofFP to see what all the hub-bub was about and was basically left with the impression "this is just OD&D but better organized, which, I mean, talk about a low bar."
 

Celebrim

Legend
That's the entire point of this thread!

Then it will be closed. I mean, I could post my honest opinion of certain game systems right now and get it closed if that's what you wanted.

Ya'll realize how much better we've gotten at game design in the past four decades, right?

Well if you mean we are better, then "No", I don't think we are. We've gotten a little better informed so that we are a little bit better at matching mechanics to their intention, but as far as clearing the hurdle and actually designing something that is elegant and playable, I don't think we are much better. Pendragon, for example? Basic RPG and WEG D6 are still some of the better designed systems of all time, and for all the problems D&D had, many of its choices - hit points, classes, spell slots, etc. - are still defensible and have not been improved on.

Nor do I think we have necessarily excelled some of the classic examples of play (by which I mean modules, adventures, scenarios, campaigns) presented 3-4 decades ago.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Then it will be closed. I mean, I could post my honest opinion of certain game systems right now and get it closed if that's what you wanted.

I mean, if your honest opinion would run afoul of the board's stated rules on inclusion, for example, then by all means keep that to yourself.

Edit: I will add that a statement such as, for example, "the explicit sexual themes in systems like V:tM, Monsterhearts or Apocalypse World is a huge turnoff for me" is a very different statement than one laced with judgment at the people who make/play said games.


Well if you mean we are better, then "No", I don't think we are. We've gotten a little better informed so that we are a little bit better at matching mechanics to their intention, but as far as clearing the hurdle and actually designing something that is elegant and playable, I don't think we are much better.

Clearly I disagree. We've gotten significantly better at matching mechanics to their intention, which is to say, we're actually doing that at some level. There are a lot of smaller indie games that, while not nearly as ambitious in its goals as Dungeons & Dragons (which has been stated as being "all things to all people" which it... mostly? succeeds at, more in spite of itself really), have very clear intentions and hit their mark beautifully. They're much more niche as a result, but still much better designed.

Pendragon, for example? Basic RPG and WEG D6 are still some of the better designed systems of all time, and for all the problems D&D had, many of its choices - hit points, classes, spell slots, etc. - are still defensible and have not been improved on.

Don't get me wrong, I look back fondly on my experiences with WEG D6, but character creation doesn't need to be that cumbersome. And while HP, classes and... well, HP and classes are certainly still defensible, there have been many alternate interpretations of represent those ideas (character health and archetype/abilities, respectively) that work much better within their own systems. YMMV, of course.

Hell, D&D itself does HP, classes, and spell slots better now than it did in any iteration that OSR cribs off of.

Nor do I think we have necessarily excelled some of the classic examples of play (by which I mean modules, adventures, scenarios, campaigns) presented 3-4 decades ago.

I said we do game design much better. Adventure design has, yeah, sadly become a bit of a lost art, but that's because the broadest swath of examples we have are required to fit into very different molds than classic one-off adventures of old (either really short pick-up and play adventures, a la Adventuer's League, or long, necessarily constrained mini-campaigns, as typified by Adventure Paths). That said, I'd still hold something like Zeitgeist up against any of the old classics (quite a few of which haven't aged nearly as well as some folks would like to believe they have)
 
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DnD: 2E, 4E, 5E, PF. Yuk

You certainly seem to be a glutton for self-punishment. You've carefully read through 4 versions of D&D, most of them three rulebooks+ each, and disliked each one. That seems a bit odd -- I'm curious about why you even bother? Why did your read the 5E books when you knew you'd dislike them?
 

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