D&D 5E Berserker Barbarians: Wait what?

Mort · Jun 12, 2019

Zardnaar said:
And at 5 level the barbarian also gets 2 attacks and can frenzy for a 3rd.

The Zealot barbarian can just about equal the 3rd attack with Divine Fury. If they choose polearm master - it gets even better (the Berserker can't benefit from that as both use a bonus action).

The problem (for frenzy) is the very high resource cost - I can't (of the top of my head) think of any class ability that imposes worse.

The 6th level ability is extremely good and the 14th as well (10th level is a great ability in theory, but good luck having the charisma for it)- but frenzied rage is likely too high a resource cost.

This doesn't mean that the Berserker is useless, or even under-powered - as a whole. Just that Exhaustion is one of the nastiest conditions in the game and seems overly punitive relative to any other class.

Swarmkeeper · Jun 12, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
I am really against the Frenzy ability of the Path of the Berserker. To my knowledge, it is the only ability that results in a detrimental effect in addition to resource expenditure. The only other mechanic that I'm aware of is Haste, but even that only lasts one round after the spell ends.

I understand that the ability to make an attack as a bonus action, regardless of the weapon, is a powerful ability. But it should still function mechanically like every other ability. Either it is limited by resource expenditure, action economy, or both.

Additionally, Barbarians are already limited in what they can accomplish in the exploration and social pillars of the game (unless those things involve feats of strength). Just one use of Frenzy guarantees that your barbarian character is even worse at those things, making them even more one dimensional as well as a potential detriment to the group.

Oh, you guys need to sneak past those guards because you're too injured from the previous fight? Well, it's just too bad that Gronk has a level of exhaustion because he used Frenzy. With disadvantage he failed his stealth check.

This is on the DM, who should be calling for a Group Check. It shouldn't be all on Gronk.

Hawk Diesel said:
Oh, Gronk wants to try and intimidate that crony that just witnessed him cleave a dude in two while frenzying? Well that's gonna be tough with disadvantage on your check from that level of exhaustion (in addition to Charisma being his dump stat).

A DM should really consider granting this auto-success based on the situation - especially if the crony is outnumbered and/or weak and/or low on HP. Also, not clear if there is a meaningful consequence to failure here. If not, no roll anyway.

Hawk Diesel said:
Oh no! Gronk needed to frenzy twice! Now the entire group is slowed to a crawl since Gronk can only move half his speed. Even with his fast movement, he's slower than a gnome!

Good point. Although, I do like the visual: the gnome trying her best to get the lumbering barbarian to giddyup. "We've got people to meet and wandering monsters to avoid - let's go Gronk!"

Hawk Diesel said:
NO GRONK! Why did you frenzy again?! Now you aren't even good at the one thing you're supposed to be good at, because you now have THREE levels of exhaustion! You aren't gonna hit squat with disadvantage on attack rolls, who cares if you get a whole extra attack with a bonus action.

Truly, I just don't see the logic in this kind of game design.

Rather than the rules limiting the action (# of uses per a time period), the PC needs to do so (via the exhaustion penalty). "Gronk tired. Me no want to frenzy more today". Granted, that's quite inconsistent when compared to other PC abilities. I can't think of any other specific examples, anyway. I suppose the choice to travel by foot more than 8 hours straight or go without a long rest for 24 hours+ could fall into this "benefit with a drawback" type of mechanic. Still, frenzy is doing it's own thing in the universe of PC abilities.

UngeheuerLich · Jun 12, 2019

The only problem of the berserker is that it lacks a different ability at level. I'd love just an extra attack when you enter rage no matter if you then frenzy or not. The first round hurts the berserker the most because you activate it and can't even use its ability immediately.

The bear totem is indeed very overrated here. His resistance does not play a role all that often. The totem barbarian however has a nice extra. Very useful ritual magic.

A different Idea would bw a ribbon ability that increases his exploration ability. Being able to heal 2 exhaustion levels or just to be able to not gain exhaustion from forced marches and so on would be nice.

Another option would be removing the requirement of being hurt or attack to maintain rage.

Raunalyn · Jun 12, 2019

UngeheuerLich said:
Another option would be removing the requirement of being hurt or attack to maintain rage.

"That's my secret captain...I'm always angry." -Bruce Banner/The Hulk

Arnwolf666 · Jun 12, 2019

Would it be better if they had written the ability as once per day and not even give you the option to try to use it more often with consequences

Dausuul · Jun 12, 2019

MiraMels said:
But especially the immunity to Charm and Fear at 6th level, its been relevant far more often than i was expecting it to be in the four levels I've played with it.

THANK YOU.

Frenzy is little more than a ribbon. Mindless Rage is what makes berserkers good. It's like people are looking at a flying car and saying it sucks because of the lack of trunk space.

jaelis · Jun 12, 2019

Arnwolf666 said:
Would it be better if they had written the ability as once per day and not even give you the option to try to use it more often with consequences

My house rule is 1/day, 2/day starting at level 11. No complaints, but then, no barbarians in the party either

MiraMels · Jun 12, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
How are they mitigated? They get advantage on Strength saves and ability checks, but only while raging. With high enough levels of exhaustion, they could mitigate their disadvantage on attack rolls, but only at the cost of making them more vulnerable to attack. Their fast movement only slightly mitigates a speed penalty with 2 levels of exhaustion, but does nothing if you get to the point where your movement becomes 0.

You've answered your own question. Rage, Feral Instinct, Indomitable Might mitigates the disadvantage from first level of exhaustion. (And Intimidating Presence makes up for the disadvantage on Charisma (intimidation) checks in a different way.) Fast movement mitigates the speed penalty from the second level of exhaustion. Rage, Reckless Attack, and Danger Sense mitigates the disadvantage from the third level of exhaustion. If you really want to push the envelope, Relentless Rage even lets you try and cope with a halved hit point maximum.

Once you hit five levels of exhaustion and your speed drops to 0, its probably time to stop and rest. I'll give you that.

Hawk Diesel · Jun 12, 2019

MiraMels said:
You've answered your own question. Rage, Feral Instinct, Indomitable Might mitigates the disadvantage from first level of exhaustion. (And Intimidating Presence makes up for the disadvantage on Charisma (intimidation) checks in a different way.) Fast movement mitigates the speed penalty from the second level of exhaustion. Rage, Reckless Attack, and Danger Sense mitigates the disadvantage from the third level of exhaustion. If you really want to push the envelope, Relentless Rage even lets you try and cope with a halved hit point maximum.

Once you hit five levels of exhaustion and your speed drops to 0, its probably time to stop and rest. I'll give you that.

You're missing the point. Does a spellcaster need to cast spells to mitigate the fact that they are using spells? Does a monk take on some handicap for using their martial arts? If a berserker barbarian is basically hamstrung for using the thing that makes them a berserker, then the system is penalizing the player for playing the class as it's meant to be played. No other class ability in the entire game makes you suffer for using your abilities aside from the resource or opportunity costs.

Arnwolf666 · Jun 12, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
You're missing the point. Does a spellcaster need to cast spells to mitigate the fact that they are using spells? Does a monk take on some handicap for using their martial arts? If a berserker barbarian is basically hamstrung for using the thing that makes them a berserker, then the system is penalizing the player for playing the class as it's meant to be played. No other class ability in the entire game makes you suffer for using your abilities aside from the resource or opportunity costs.

Not all classes and archetypes need to have the same mechanic or resource management. Some prefer it that way. My opinion only.

D&D 5E Berserker Barbarians: Wait what?

Mort

Legend

Swarmkeeper

Hero

UngeheuerLich

Legend

Raunalyn

Hero

Arnwolf666

Adventurer

Dausuul

Legend

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?

MiraMels

Explorer

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer

Arnwolf666

Adventurer

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