D&D 4E 4e Clone − help create it!

Yaarel · Jun 13, 2019

Immortal Sun said:
Frankly, as a 4E lover, I'm strongly interested in fewer ability scores, not more.

Ability Bonuses

Your ability bonuses define the things that you tend to be good at. Your aptitudes. For example, a high Strength bonus makes you inherently good at various challenges that need you to be physically strong.

Physical Ability Bonuses

• Strength represents your brute strength, toughness, and size.
• Dexterity represents your precise motion, skillful athleticism, and dodging.

Mental Ability Bonuses

• Intelligence represents your five senses, analysis, and intuition.
• Charisma represents your social skills, empathy, and willpower.

Yaarel · Jun 13, 2019

How do you guys feel about everyone getting a free feat at level 1? I suppose, a human gains two.

I love 4e ‘themes’. It seems like Pathfinder2 now has something like this as well.

A themes are a substantial set of thematic abilities, in addition to class and race. These are great for rounding out a character, connecting the character to persons or places in the setting, or if teammates take related themes, connecting the team to each other.

Actually, 4e themes were non-core, showing up in Dragon Magazine issues, and in several spatbooks. Of course, 4e design philosophy made ‘everything core’. But the character advancement table itself allocates no place for themes. So the theme pretty much adds a substantial amount of power in addition to an already substantial level 1.

In the ‘Advancement’ section in the original post, the table allocates space for ‘skills’ − including skill related features. This is the place to pick and develop a ‘profession’ − to represent a 4e ‘theme’ − with a 5e ‘background’ in mind too.

I want this skill space to focus on noncombat capabilities. For example, Fighter is competent in skills outside of combat because the choice of profession is separate from the Fighter class. The profession grants skills and related skill features at ‘level zero’ along with race, and later at levels 2, 10, and 18. At level 10, the profession relates to being a head of an organization, such as a guild. At level 18, the profession relates to being the head of nation, or its equivalent. This helps invite old school involvement in noncombat politics at higher levels.

The thing is, a 4e theme can be almost anything. Even a place to say that one is a werewolf, or a member of an Eberron house, or so on. Some of these ‘professions’ have combat implications. ... But I prefer the profession to be an area for noncombat.

A solution is, everyone gets a free feat at level 1, and can use this feat in any way they wish − to boost an ability bonus, augment a race, augment a class − or choose a combat ability that bolsters a violent ‘profession’.

Yaarel · Jun 13, 2019

I want ultra simple grappling. Is the following feasible enough?

Grappling

Grappling represents wrestling, grabbing, pulling, and pushing.

Always use Dexterity to make a grappling attack but always use Strength to keep hold.

For example.

To break out of a hold, you attack via your Dexterity versus your opponents Strength.

To climb onto a Dinosaur, you attack via your Dexterity to grab on around a neck or a horn, and an unwilling Dinosaur attacks via its Dexterity versus your Strength to shake you off.

Always use Strength to force a move. Thus a push without grabbing hold can eschew Dexterity.

Grappling attacks are natural unarmed attacks, with or without proficiency.

Garthanos · Jun 14, 2019

Yaarel said:
How do you guys feel about everyone getting a free feat at level 1? I suppose, a human gains two.

I love 4e ‘themes’. It seems like Pathfinder2 now has something like this as well.

A themes are a substantial set of thematic abilities, in addition to class and race. These are great for rounding out a character, connecting the character to persons or places in the setting, or if teammates take related themes, connecting the team to each other.

Actually, 4e themes were non-core, showing up in Dragon Magazine issues, and in several spatbooks. Of course, 4e design philosophy made ‘everything core’. But the character advancement table itself allocates no place for themes. So the theme pretty much adds a substantial amount of power in addition to an already substantial level 1.

Many of a themes effects were just power swaps.... not power upgrades but they might be represented in 5e as a type of 5e feat.

Paragon paths might be a 5e feat as would Epic Destiny.

Not sure if the 5e feat will convey them well. But they might be built that way.

Zardnaar · Jun 14, 2019

I assume it will be 4E or Pathfinder levels of feats so a human would get a bonus feat.

Yaarel · Jun 14, 2019

Garthanos said:
Many of a themes effects were just power swaps.... not power upgrades but they might be represented in 5e as a type of 5e feat.

I am a big fan of swaps. They are awesome for customization and balance.

If everything is formatted as powers, then it is so easy swap one power for an other.

Garthanos said:
Paragon paths might be a 5e feat as would Epic Destiny.

Not sure if the 5e feat will convey them well. But they might be built that way.

If you look at the ‘Advancement’ table. The way the leveling sequence works out has levels 20 to 24 for Epic tier. This includes two ‘Epic’ feats at levels 20 and 24. It also includes an Epic race feature − great for concepts like Archfey. Levels 21 and 23 are for the Epic ‘destiny’ − here renamed ‘immortality’. These immortality features focus on a method of gaining immortality, and an epic legacy or portfolio relating to this concept.

Zardnaar said:
I assume it will be 4E or Pathfinder levels of feats so a human would get a bonus feat.

This Advancement table allocates class features (including archetype and path) at each odd level, because that is when the spellcasters get their class spells. This table intentionally, allocates spells according to the 3e and 5e method, because it allows for players to pick and choose various kinds of spells. 4e itself was hyper rigid − assigning dailies, encounters, and at-wills at specific levels − thus made spells wonky and difficult to balance.

I feel all feats should use the same format as spells. Then it is easy to compare them to spells, and rank them according to their levels. Then allow players to pick any feat of the same level or lower.

A cool thing about 4e is, there are no ‘spell levels’. All levels refer to the same level in the Advancement table. So it is possible to rank all spells and feats from level 1 to level 20 and higher.

In 5e, the class determines whether a spell is cast per long rest or per short rest. For example, Wizard and Sorcerer can cast certain same spells differently. But for 4e, the spell itself is short or long. So, I think it is ok for a Wizard to pick a short-rest spell and for a Warlock to pick a long-rest spell, if they want it for their known spells.

jayoungr · Jun 14, 2019

Yaarel said:
To break out of a hold, you attack via your Dexterity versus your opponents Strength.

I know you want it to be simple, but it just doesn't seem right to me not to be able to use Strength to break a grapple.

Azzy · Jun 14, 2019

jayoungr said:
I know you want it to be simple, but it just doesn't seem right to me not to be able to use Strength to break a grapple.

I would go with a choice of either—representing wither the strength to force of the grapple, or the dexterity to squim or twist out of the grapple.

Yaarel · Jun 14, 2019

jayoungr said:
I know you want it to be simple, but it just doesn't seem right to me not to be able to use Strength to break a grapple.

Azzy said:
I would go with a choice of either—representing wither the strength to force of the grapple, or the dexterity to squim or twist out of the grapple.

Yeah, I guess.

Maybe for the sake of simplicity, ANY grappling maneuver can attack or defend via whichever is higher, Dexterity or Strength.

So, Dexterity can ‘Push’ by means of a judo flip or so on, and ‘hold’ by grabbing a sensitive place like a finger.

I have in mind that there are only four abilities (or at least only four ‘active’ abilities). So, attack uses Strength or Dexterity +d20, and defense uses Strength or Dexterity +10.

It occurs to me, size should count as armor. Human Medium size and smaller normally relies on Dexterity augmented by armor, for defense. However, Huge and Gargantuan are difficult to hit because these puny little weaklings dont really matter relative to these larger sizes. Consider Giant and Dragon, finding sword attacks to be more a nuisance than an injury, like biting ants.

So, a character can defend against weapons using either defense: Dexterity (to dodge) or Strength (to shrug off), whichever is higher.

Yaarel · Jun 14, 2019

@Azzy, [MENTION=6702445]jayoungr[/MENTION]

I updated the original post as follows. Any suggestions?

Grappling

Grappling represents wrestling, grabbing, pulling, and pushing.

To make a grappling attack, add d20 to whichever is highest, your Dexterity bonus (for agility and leverage) or your Strength bonus (for physical size and power).

To make a grappling defense, add 10 to whichever is highest, Dexterity or Strength.

However, always use Strength to keep a hold ongoing.

For example.

To break out of a hold, you attack via your Dexterity versus your opponents Strength.

To climb onto a Dinosaur, you attack via your Dexterity to grab on around a neck or a horn, and an unwilling Dinosaur attacks via its Dexterity versus your Strength to shake you off.

Grappling attacks are natural unarmed attacks, with or without proficiency.