The Final Bladelock

Fenris-77 · Jun 15, 2019

But ... all Warlocks can wield weapons.

Paul Farquhar · Jun 15, 2019

A maxed out dex bladelock is likely to have better AC, initiative and rogue skills.

A maxed out str bladelock who is a half orc with a greataxe can focus on using warlock abilities to fish for critical hits.

Not choosing Agonising Blast frees up an invocation slot which is especially useful if the warlock wants to focus on out of combat utility.

Without Agonising Blast, depending on spell choices, a warlock can do fine without a high charisma.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
A maxed out dex bladelock is likely to have better AC, initiative and rogue skills.

A maxed out str bladelock who is a half orc with a greataxe can focus on using warlock abilities to fish for critical hits.

Not choosing Agonising Blast frees up an invocation slot which is especially useful if the warlock wants to focus on out of combat utility.

Without Agonising Blast, depending on spell choices, a warlock can do fine without a high charisma.

But my point is that this is all for the low low price of 2 to 4 invocations to maximize bladelock when the tome lock gets all this from their cantrips. That's my issue.

Paul Farquhar · Jun 15, 2019

Xeviat said:
But my point is that this is all for the low low price of 2 to 4 invocations to maximize bladelock when the tome lock gets all this from their cantrips. That's my issue.

You haven't really read what I said, have you?

A tomelock does not get "better AC, initiative and rogue skills" from cantrips. A half orc cannot use Shillelagh with a great axe, getting the most out of their racial strength bonus and Savage Attacks ability. Shillelagh and GFB do not allow you to forgo charisma.

Basically, you are looking at one question: "how can I maximise damage" and completely ignoring every other aspect of the game.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
You haven't really read what I said, have you?

Easy, no need to be rude.

Paul Farquhar said:
A tomelock does not get "better AC, initiative and rogue skills" from cantrips. A half orc cannot use Shillelagh with a great axe, getting the most out of their racial strength bonus and Savage Attacks ability. Shillelagh and GFB do not allow you to forgo charisma.

Basically, you are looking at one question: "how can I maximise damage" and completely ignoring every other aspect of the game.

I guess I'm looking at 20th level when bladelock and tomelock can each have 20 Dex/Cha. But a hexblade doesn't need to push past 14 Dex to get max AC.

I'm just saying that Bladelock costs too many invocations to just keep up with the damage of one cantrip/invocation or two cantrips (that were given as part of the same resource as the bladelock's blade). Yes, I am looking only at attack and damage for this. I'm looking at an end point and seeing that one build is costing more resources to get to that same end point. Yes, a bladelock could go Str/Con or Dex/Con and forget their Cha entirely (but they can't, because then they lose the damage of thirsting blade).

Stalker0 · Jun 15, 2019

Xeviat said:
you can use your eldritch blast in melee, and it takes the form of a weapon. It deals 1d12+Dex damage.

I just something similar. I didn't change the damage, but allowed the blade to gain any benefits of the blast. So invocations that give knockback for example, could be used. The invocation that adds your charisma mod would apply, etc.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

Stalker0 said:
I just something similar. I didn't change the damage, but allowed the blade to gain any benefits of the blast. So invocations that give knockback for example, could be used. The invocation that adds your charisma mod would apply, etc.

It's a super simple solution, but it feels like it's only giving 1 cantrip at that point compared to tome's 3. Do you pair it with anything else, like armor or shield profs?

Paul Farquhar · Jun 16, 2019

Xeviat said:
Easy, no need to be rude.

I guess I'm looking at 20th level when bladelock and tomelock can each have 20 Dex/Cha.

Which is pretty silly give that most characters never make it to 20, and if they do you are talking about the last session in a four year long campaign. It would also require the warlock to take no feats.

In the levels that people actually play the warlock will have one or two ASAs.

But a hexblade doesn't need to push past 14 Dex to get max AC.

So? a hexblade with pact of the blade will be using Cha, not Dex. It's a bladepact warlock who isn't a hexblade that will want to max dex (and dump cha).

I'm just saying that Bladelock costs too many invocations.

If you dump Cha Agonising Blast and Lifedrinker become pointless, saving you two invocations on the spot.

I assume you are also comparing to an Eldritch Blast warlock who doesn't take any of the invocations that add secondary effects to Eldritch Blast, on account of those secondary effects (although far more useful than damage) don't actually add to DPS.

Yes, I am looking only at attack and damage for this.

Which is also pretty silly. The game has three pillars, combat is only one of them, and damage output is only a part of the combat pillar. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if you have zero survivability and can't attack first because everyone else has higher dexterity than you do.

Xeviat · Jun 16, 2019

A bladelock without charisma falls behind in the teens.

I'm only looking at damage. That's why I limited the scope of what I'm looking at. Yes, a high Dex bladelock at lower levels has things that a lower Dex, high charisma melee tomelock doesn't have; but the tomelock, without spending invocations, has more potent spells so we're already in hard to compare territory.

Paul Farquhar · Jun 17, 2019

Do you expect all class/subclass choices to have the same HP, AC, skill points and utility powers?

Class/Subclass choices are NOT INTENDED TO DO EQUAL DAMAGE.

And this is a thoroughly good thing. You see in some MMOs where classes are "balanced" around the idea that they should all do the same damage. And what you get is a bland mess where choosing your class is as meaningful as choosing the colour of your cloak.

If you want to build a character who is focused solely on maximising damage then you should choose your class and subclass accordingly. Don't try and change a different class, because that leads to choices becoming meaningless and is an ABOMINATION UNTO NUGGEN.