D&D General If you could put D&D into any other non middle ages genre, what would it be?

Urriak

Explorer
I'll just add that Edge of the Empire has a lot of firearms (or lazers or whatever), and essentially uses HP under a different name (wounds).

I think anyone making the argument that D&D is incompatible with firearms for HP reasons is frankly ridiculous (they already exist and mostly work).

You could probably make a good argument for saying firearms don't work in D&D because of reasons related to "taking cover," but D&D has rules for that too, it's just people don't use them as much because a lot of combat is melee.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
My points is that hit points are intrinsically linked to the question of tactics in the gameplay.
Sure. Focus fire is the obvious example - hp damage imposes no penalties, so, focusing on one enemy at a time is always the best tactic, and accepting hp damage in return for enabling some other objective is often a pretty easy choice.

That is, you can always skip minding cover if all you stand to lose is a couple of hit points. Yes, in the long run you can't afford to lose hp carelessly, but skipping cover is a definite choice to weigh against getting to your destination quicker.
Nod. That kind of pedantic player calculation, though, actually can enable a genre-appropriate action on the part of the hero - apparent 'risk taking' or 'bravery' (the /player/ know the PC will just lose some hps - but lose some hps, in the fiction, looks like taking a deadly risk and barely getting away with it).

PS. As always, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with using hit points for a gunpowder game.

I'm only trying to bridge two different viewpoints by explaining why resistance against hit points have real solid origins, rather than it being just "wrong"
In that sense there's no 'wrong' just inconsistent. It's inconsistent to get exercised about hp loss not being a sufficient disincentive against breaking cover in a western, but not about it not being a sufficient disincentive to say, charging a horde of orcs in fantasy.

Hit points are a very abstract mechanic, and can be used a lot of different ways to enable a lot of pretty cool in-game narratives. But there's a habit of thinking of them in a much more narrow, and internally inconsistent way.

But remember you don't need to reinvent the wheel here. The problem has been tackled before. You know, by other games.
And that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is using D&D in other genres, not converting D&Ders to other systems that aren't as bad as it at a given genre.


But do you really need to? I think the thing that bothers me most about this "D&D doesn't work with guns" is that unless you assume fully automatic weapons and an unlimited ammo supply, guns are really all that much different in game terms than what we already have. Particularly if you limit to 19th century or earlier tech, they really aren't all that much more effective.
One reason I have for the opinion that D&D can work fine with firearms - to that point, is that I've done and seen it done a lot the last, oh, going on 10 years, now, I guess.

For instance, back in 2010, I started playing in a campaign that brought PCs together from alternate worlds. I chose to pay a Cleric who was an Old-west fire & brimstone preacher. He didn't happen to be carrying a gun when he got sucked into the campaign's setting, so it was a non-issue. Later, closer to Paragon, the story worked around to an old-west world (with a zombie apocalypse), and we picked up a Ranger (who was literally a Texas Ranger), using a re-skinned superior crossbow with increased-RoF-feats as his Winchester.

Introduce firearms to D&D without a hitch a few times, and you start to get over the dogmatic horror of the idea that was the norm back in the day.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Do you ever wish forum posts were like Facebook posts, where you could turn off commenting on posts you create? And just let them die and be forgotten?

That’s how I’m feeling about this one. Went off the rails right away. I don’t know, maybe I’m at fault for presenting a discussion idea I thought would be fun to talk about without realizing how fast it would degrade into an off topic back and forth. It was supposed to be about what other genre/setting/era outside of traditional D&D might be fun for you to play with the D&D rules, and it immediately got stuck on the guns in the Wild West and how D&D sucks for that.

If you think D&D rules don’t work for that, good for you. Then don’t talk about it. Talk about what setting/genre you think would be fun. And if you can’t think of one, then this thread clearly isn’t for you. Anything else is threadcapping.

I swear, we can’t even have a basic discussion of “I think this would be fun” without people chiming in to say how that’s wrong, how it sucks, etc.
Hey, at least your thread got replies! Nobody replies to mine :.-(
 

Satyrn

First Post
Danggit, [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]! You weren't supposed to go respond to the thread. Now I can't whine so loudly about being ignored. :uhoh:
 


CapnZapp

Legend
In that sense there's no 'wrong' just inconsistent. It's inconsistent to get exercised about hp loss not being a sufficient disincentive against breaking cover in a western, but not about it not being a sufficient disincentive to say, charging a horde of orcs in fantasy.

Hit points are a very abstract mechanic, and can be used a lot of different ways to enable a lot of pretty cool in-game narratives. But there's a habit of thinking of them in a much more narrow, and internally inconsistent way.
And there's a habit of narrowly accusing people that protest against hit points of being inconsistent in order to more easily dismiss their very valid concerns.

Stop making it only about double standards. It is perfectly valid to not want to use hit points because of how that changes the game compared to games without them.

I might add: Just as it perfectly valid to ignore the impact of those changes because of simplicity (hp is if nothing else easy), familiarity (everyone you play with know D&D already) or simply because you've never tried any other game. Just to mention three reasons; I'm sure there are more.

And that's irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is using D&D in other genres, not converting D&Ders to other systems that aren't as bad as it at a given genre.
You tell me this as of you didn't see me stopping that sidetrack short. So I'll simply say I agree.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
And there's a habit of narrowly accusing people that protest against hit points of being inconsistent in order to more easily dismiss their very valid concerns.
Stop making it only about double standards.
Valid concerns can be expressed without relying on double standards. It's not that hard a bar to clear.

And, answering concerns in detail is not dismissal.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You're talking about the ducking and weaving that's implied but not actually governed by the rules.

No I'm not, which is why.........................what I described was explicitly NOT ducking and weaving. I said moving forwards and backwards. Watch a combat sometime. The combatants will move sometimes dozens of yards while fighting. What they do not do is sit in one spot not moving and just swing at each other.

But why would I be talking about that?

Dunno. I'm not talking about that, either.

I'm obviously talking about movement at range; very simply which square on the battlemat your character occupies.

And I was obviously talking about movement during melee. The squares a melee combatant occupies during a melee would also change significantly in a typical combat.

D&D isn't about typical combats.

If every hit carries the potential to ruin your day (whether through pain penalties or outright unconsciousness) you're that much more likely to choose the longer, safer path to the position where you can engage the opposition.

This also applies to melee. Every single hit carries the potential to ruin your day(whether through pain, penalties or outright unconsciousness), so melee combatants are also that much more likely to move around in order to avoid swings.

If, on the other hand, only the last hit carries any consequences (which is the case in games with energy shields or hit points) you're that much more likely to take the direct path and just soak the incoming damage, thinking perhaps the time saved will make up for the increased risk of hp loss.

This really is very simple stuff.

Yep. And it quite simply applies equally to both ranged and melee weapons.
 


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