Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

Chaotic Good: "I'm a nice person, but I make my own decisions."

That's Western individualism right there.

Charlaquin said:

Except that the idea Chaotic Neutral is committed to is noncommitment to anything but one’s self. It’s just Neutral with attitude.

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This is objectively wrong. This whole CN is more neutral than N. By definition, chaotic individuals actively oppose laws -- especially those laws they see are victimless. So laws against say prostitution, drug use, mandatory wearing of seatbelts, etc. they opposed because they oppress individuals. This is not a more neutral than alignment. A Chaotic Good person will try to change or go around laws on the assumption that people act with personal responsibility toward each other. A Chaotic Neutral person would actively participate in smuggling, stealing from the rich because they have rigged the system, etc. A Chaotic Evil person would engage in assassination in the attempt to overthrow laws they don't agree with.

True Neutral on the other hand is essentially "Live and Let Live", "Don't Rock the Boat", "I'm not getting involved" type of alignment. It doesn't see to support or subvert laws. If a law is inconvenient they may ignore IF they think they can get away with it and/or the consequences aren't severe enough to worry about. They literally don't think about others before they act. A person that throws trash out of a moving car onto the side of the road -- Neutral unless in a country like Singapore where they would get publicly canned for it. A CG person would not throw trash out of a car because someone else would have to clean it up despite them thinking that the law is unnecessary. A CN person would throw the trash to "screw the man" and cause more expense to the local government to clean it up. A CE person would throw the most horrible trash possible feces, hypodermic needles and so forth not only to cause the local government trouble but all the people that support that government.

So, no Chaotic has an agenda -- it actively opposes Law.

Hussar said:

I disagree. If your character is consistent, reliable, dependable and never impulsive, in what way is that character chaotic? What about any of those descriptors would lead an observer to the conclusion that this character is chaotic?

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Being consistent has nothing to do with alignment. A chaotic person may live by their own rules and have a complete disregard for authority while still acknowledging that they have to follow the laws of the land or suffer the consequences. My character can be impulsive without being disruptive, reliable without being lawful. What is it about alignment that makes you think they can't make friendships and long lasting bonds? That they can't accept that they're better off working with a group instead of as a lone wolf? Chaotic does not mean mentally unstable.

As far as what outside observers see, I don't see why it matters. Let's take a scenario where the group is in a kingdom run by orcs and the group has discovered the orcs have a large number of human slaves. Circumstances are such that they can realistically free the slaves.

• LG: We should free the slaves because the laws of the land are of little concern to me, the tenets of my faith are that people should be free. The laws of the land are invalid
• NG: Motivated by my empathy for the slaves, I simply want them to have better lives.
• CG: People have the right to freedom and to choose the lives they want to live, not be forced into manual labor.
• LN: The stupid filthy orcs live in squalor, they have no sense of order or decency. Time to set things right.
• N: The orcs have way too much power here, time to balance things out a bit. Besides, helping them helps me.
• CN: We're getting paid, right? While the orcs are busy chasing down the escapees there will be fewer guard for their treasure horde.
• LE: These orcs are terrible at this. If I free them now, they'll realize that servitude to the law is their proper place. As long as they stay in line I'll make sure they're treated better so that they're more productive.
• NE: Ah fodder for my plans.
• CE: Can I start a slave rebellion? I don't care if they all die, it would serve them right, but just think of the fun glorious destruction we could have!

So I can justify the same basic action with any alignment.

Hussar said:

I disagree. If your character is consistent, reliable, dependable and never impulsive, in what way is that character chaotic? What about any of those descriptors would lead an observer to the conclusion that this character is chaotic?

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I think this all boils down to a fundamental disagreement over what the word Chaotic means in terms of alignment.

You seem to be of the opinion that being Chaotic is like being a kleptomaniac - both require the character to follow their impulses with little regard for the consequences.

Myself and others are of the opinion that Chaotic is NOT like being a kleptomaniac - one is basic motivation that can easily be overridden by other factors such as maintaining friendships, fear of punishment, etc., while one is basically a mental disorder.

Neither opinion is factually wrong - this is a game of make-believe, after all - but can you see how our interpretation might make the Chaotic alignments a little more acceptable as part of an adventuring group? Because you're right, under what I believe your and others' interpretation of Chaotic to be, no one in their right minds would allow a Chaotic person in their adventuring group (even, I would say, CG - Chaotic is, after all, by definition completely unreliable), much less trust them with their life.

Hussar said:

I disagree. If your character is consistent, reliable, dependable and never impulsive, in what way is that character chaotic? What about any of those descriptors would lead an observer to the conclusion that this character is chaotic?

As far as “policing” goes, I’m not really sure where you are getting that. I guess my question to the player would be the same as my question to you - if this character never does anything that would be described as chaotic, then how is this character chaotic?

If the chaotic character acts exactly the same as the lawful character then why bother with the distinction?

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you seem to think that the chaotic alignment imposes severe mental instability on a character. That is not the case. It’s as simple as that, really.

You also continue to invent arguments to refute, instead of addressing what I and others are actually putting in our posts. That isn’t useful.

A chaotic character can work as part of a team, because a chaotic character isn’t some sort of comic book caricature or mental illness, like the joker. CN means you don’t care about laws, social norms, or have any particular respect or regard for authority, and you instead decide how to live and act based on what you want and what matters to you. You still have bonds, ideals, friendships, and the basic ability to reason. Chaotic does not mean “unable to control one’s impulses”.

Lanefan said:

If for no other reason than if there's anything in the game that interacts differently with one alignment than another, or detects alignment, the DM needs to know what you are.

For my part, what the player writes on the character sheet is only relevant for the first while*, until I-as-DM have seen the character in action and made my own determination of its alignment as played; which trumps what's on the sheet. And sometimes what I see is a long way from what the player wrote down!

* - during this time I also have no problem at all with a character somewhat-arbitrarily changing alignment if the player's initial idea for the character isn't working out. After this breaking-in period, alignment change - be it voluntary of forced - can have consequences particularly for some classes.

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I mean, from my perspective, you’re describing a really bad dnd experience. That sounds like the kind of table I’d walk away from mid session, after the DM refused to compromise their need to control my character.

You dont have a vote in what my character’s alignment is.

coolAlias said:

I think this all boils down to a fundamental disagreement over what the word Chaotic means in terms of alignment.

You seem to be of the opinion that being Chaotic is like being a kleptomaniac - both require the character to follow their impulses with little regard for the consequences.

Myself and others are of the opinion that Chaotic is NOT like being a kleptomaniac - one is basic motivation that can easily be overridden by other factors such as maintaining friendships, fear of punishment, etc., while one is basically a mental disorder.

Neither opinion is factually wrong - this is a game of make-believe, after all - but can you see how our interpretation might make the Chaotic alignments a little more acceptable as part of an adventuring group? Because you're right, under what I believe your and others' interpretation of Chaotic to be, no one in their right minds would allow a Chaotic person in their adventuring group (even, I would say, CG - Chaotic is, after all, by definition completely unreliable), much less trust them with their life.

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Exactly this. Also, it’s wild that people have an easier time understanding how an Evil character can function in a group and sublimate their impulses in favor of other priorities, than with a Chaotic character.

[MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION] I’d also add that any of those alignments could be attached to a character who just hates slavers, and will try to free slaves if they can, or a character whose main priority is group cohesion and the good of their party memebers (or 1 specific member), in a group that features 1 or more members who deeply care about the fate of these slaves.

[MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION] I’d also add that any of those alignments could be attached to a character who just hates slavers, and will try to free slaves if they can, or a character whose main priority is group cohesion and the good of their party memebers (or 1 specific member), in a group that features 1 or more members who deeply care about the fate of these slaves.

Oofta said:

Being consistent has nothing to do with alignment. A chaotic person may live by their own rules and have a complete disregard for authority while still acknowledging that they have to follow the laws of the land or suffer the consequences. My character can be impulsive without being disruptive, reliable without being lawful. What is it about alignment that makes you think they can't make friendships and long lasting bonds? That they can't accept that they're better off working with a group instead of as a lone wolf? Chaotic does not mean mentally unstable.

As far as what outside observers see, I don't see why it matters. Let's take a scenario where the group is in a kingdom run by orcs and the group has discovered the orcs have a large number of human slaves. Circumstances are such that they can realistically free the slaves.

• LG: We should free the slaves because the laws of the land are of little concern to me, the tenets of my faith are that people should be free. The laws of the land are invalid
• NG: Motivated by my empathy for the slaves, I simply want them to have better lives.
• CG: People have the right to freedom and to choose the lives they want to live, not be forced into manual labor.
• LN: The stupid filthy orcs live in squalor, they have no sense of order or decency. Time to set things right.
• N: The orcs have way too much power here, time to balance things out a bit. Besides, helping them helps me.
• CN: We're getting paid, right? While the orcs are busy chasing down the escapees there will be fewer guard for their treasure horde.
• LE: These orcs are terrible at this. If I free them now, they'll realize that servitude to the law is their proper place. As long as they stay in line I'll make sure they're treated better so that they're more productive.
• NE: Ah fodder for my plans.
• CE: Can I start a slave rebellion? I don't care if they all die, it would serve them right, but just think of the fun glorious destruction we could have!

So I can justify the same basic action with any alignment.

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Your LG is just another CG. It's an example of a CG cleric or paladin following his beliefs and the tenets of his CG god. Below is what would be a better example of LG.

LG: Slavery is unjust and the tyrannical government enslaving the people should be overthrown. New just laws against slavery should be instated.

coolAlias said:

I think this all boils down to a fundamental disagreement over what the word Chaotic means in terms of alignment.

You seem to be of the opinion that being Chaotic is like being a kleptomaniac - both require the character to follow their impulses with little regard for the consequences.

Myself and others are of the opinion that Chaotic is NOT like being a kleptomaniac - one is basic motivation that can easily be overridden by other factors such as maintaining friendships, fear of punishment, etc., while one is basically a mental disorder.

Neither opinion is factually wrong - this is a game of make-believe, after all - but can you see how our interpretation might make the Chaotic alignments a little more acceptable as part of an adventuring group? Because you're right, under what I believe your and others' interpretation of Chaotic to be, no one in their right minds would allow a Chaotic person in their adventuring group (even, I would say, CG - Chaotic is, after all, by definition completely unreliable), much less trust them with their life.

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I play it as both. During 3e I had a human with a greater fey bloodline(Unearthed Arcana). The PC was a ranger/sorcerer, with my sorcery spells being illusion and charm primarily, with a few other "tricky" type spells, like benign transposition. I played him like a normal PC some of the time, and impulsive, acting on his whim some of the time. Sometimes I'd wait for the party to decide what to do about the door. Other times I'd just open it up to see what was on the other side.

One time we were breaking into a stronghold and were up in a secret stone passageway that opened up above a corridor. The opening was set such that it could not be seen from the corridor. However, unbeknownst to us, those down there had heard us and knew we were up there. One of the PCs said in a whisper that he wished he knew how many were down in the passage. My character, acting on impulse popped his head out to count. I got a blast disk to the face(figuratively) as a result. I got healed and said, "They can't have two!" and proceeded to try and check again, only to get a second blast to the face. I popped back, got healed a second time and said, "There's no way they have three!" Then I paused to give the other players a moment, which they quickly used to declare that they were grabbing me. Everyone laughed and it's still, 10 years later, one of the moments we all remember and talk about.

I think that whim and impulse are required for CN, but not as an always on thing. Too much consistency in belief and the alignment stops being chaotic enough qualify.