Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

D&D Beyond has provided yet another of it's data dumps of 12 million characters -- this time telling us character alignments are most popular in D&D. Chaotic Good wins, followed by my least favourite as a DM, Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic Evil is the least popular.

D&D Beyond has provided yet another of it's data dumps of 12 million characters -- this time telling us character alignments are most popular in D&D. Chaotic Good wins, followed by my least favourite as a DM, Chaotic Neutral. Chaotic Evil is the least popular.

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The developer does say that this does not count the percentage of characters with no alignment selected. You can see the original video here.
 

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OB1

Jedi Master
The Law/Chaos spectrum can be viewed analogously to the Good/Evil spectrum, but with personal wellbeing swapped out for liberty and others’ wellbeing swapped out for societal order.

Lawful - I sacrifice my own liberty to benefit society as a whole.
Neutral - I meet the expectations society places on me, to the extent that thru don’t impede on my personal liberty.
Chaotic - I eschew society in favor of retaining my personal liberty.

I like this! My only quibble is the line with lawful about benefiting society as a whole, as it doesn’t work with LE. How about this.

Lawful - I work to increase Order.
Neutral - I work to maintain Order
Chaotic - I actively or passively embrace disorder.

Or even more simply

I create.
I maintain.
I undo.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I like this! My only quibble is the line with lawful about benefiting society as a whole, as it doesn’t work with LE.

Why not? Evil society is still society. Any authoritarian regime expects its citizens to sacrifice pretty much all personal liberty for the benefit of society.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That’s why I prefer to distinguish between a character’s ideology and their actions. The above character sounds like he holds Good ideals, but commits Evil actions. Which is fairly typical, to be honest. Most people tend to hold altruistic ideals in theory, but in actual practice behave more egoistically. At my table, that character would have Good written on his character sheet, but would count as Evil for the purposes of any mechanics that care about alignment. But, of course, ignoring alignment completely works just as well. Better for 5e, in fact, since 5e has almost no mechanics that care about alignment anyway.

I would imagine that the majority of people do not know their own alignment, and misrepresent their alignment to others and even to themselves. In D&D terms, it requires a high degree of Wisdom to be self-aware enough to know what you actually believe and what it means. This is complicated by the fact that no mortal however wise is going to be absolutely pure in their alignment, but will depart from it consciously or unconsciously at times in a variety of ways. And again, in D&D terms, the lower the character's Wisdom, the less understanding and willpower they will have to actually perform the deeds that they claim to believe in.

In the case of Maxperson's hypothetical child abuser, I don't think many members of the community will - once they discover his secret vice - think twice about labeling the man an evil monster. All of his public good deeds are actually rather small acts which barely rise above the level of neutrality. They create a few small moments of weal and health, compared to a potential lifetime of pain, suffering, and mental unhealthy in the man's victims. The two things aren't even comparable. They are clearly a public show that does not reflect the man's real character, which is better reflected in his private acts. We in the real world recently had a series of scandals in which public figures who had squeaky clean public images, or which had received awards for their meritorious public statements regarding women, in reality behaved in this way in order to create a plausible front behind which they could safely engage in abusive and nefarious behavior.

I find it strange that someone would speculate that a person regularly abuses children to satisfy his appetites might possibly be good, or even just good on the net. I mean, in certain sense I agree that people are more complicated than alignment, but I'm baffled that anyone would think that example demonstrates that or provides some sort of strong objection to having alignment in a fantasy game.

I tend to prefer in my games to have what is on the sheet reflect the characters actual alignment, and trust my players to play character's in a nuanced and complicated fashion. Of course, they don't always do that, but at least then the player has no excuse for not knowing how I judge the character's actions. So, at my table, the child abuser would certainly be evil of some sort and the player would be expected to know that, regardless of what the character believed about himself. The character can believe that he is Lawful Good, and that he has a right to perform the abuse, and that it's for the best in some fashion or whatever other monstrous justification he gives himself. I'd be very uncomfortable with a player acting out a character in a monstrous fashion of any sort, and not realizing that the character was a monster. Heck, when it comes to a PC actually being a sexual abuser of children, I think I'd probably have to put a stop to that OOC because that would be some seriously sick crap.

I can only report on my experience with groups and players. And my experience suggests to me that at least the plurality of groups and players that have a problem slapping an alignment label on their character sheet, have that problem precisely because they want to think of their characters as being heroic and good, even as those characters engage in a series of monstrous acts - cold blooded murder, torture, mind rape, arson, theft, etc. They tend to play characters that like Maxperson's hypothetical child abuser, believe that the little bit of good they are doing, or the good cause they claim they are advancing, outweighs the fact that they are behaving more or less indistinguishable from the villains aside from - maybe - the color of the hat that they are wearing. Every deception, every murder, every theft, and every act of abuse is justified because they need to win. When I get those players at my table, I tend to just encourage them to play Neutral characters, and explain to them that most people in the campaign world don't believe alignment is all that important, or that it is entirely situational, or that ultimately what is right is what is practical and utilitarian. It's a harsh world and they are just trying to survive and don't have time for philosophical arguments.

This tends to make both of us happy. If it turns out that they really want to play an evil character, they just didn't want to think of the character that they played as evil, I find I can usually bribe them into putting evil on their character sheet, by promising them some token reward like 100 XP "good role-playing" reward, if upon performing an evil act, they'll adjust Nuetral or Chaotic Neutral to Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. And again, this makes both of us happy. I now have the correct alignment written on the character sheet, and the player feels like they are 'winning'. Win, win.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why not? Evil society is still society. Any authoritarian regime expects its citizens to sacrifice pretty much all personal liberty for the benefit of society.

Because it falls apart when you apply it to groups smaller than a country. The Mafia is a classic lawful evil group that does not benefit society as a whole. They only work to benefit their smaller society.
 

Oofta

Legend
Because it falls apart when you apply it to groups smaller than a country. The Mafia is a classic lawful evil group that does not benefit society as a whole. They only work to benefit their smaller society.

So you're claiming that there has never been a government we would classify as LE? :confused:
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I would imagine that the majority of people do not know their own alignment, and misrepresent their alignment to others and even to themselves. In D&D terms, it requires a high degree of Wisdom to be self-aware enough to know what you actually believe and what it means. This is complicated by the fact that no mortal however wise is going to be absolutely pure in their alignment, but will depart from it consciously or unconsciously at times in a variety of ways. And again, in D&D terms, the lower the character's Wisdom, the less understanding and willpower they will have to actually perform the deeds that they claim to believe in.

Being absolutely pure in an alignment means that you are caricature of a person. People are more complex than that and I doubt that a single person on Earth would fall into a single alignment.

In the case of Maxperson's hypothetical child abuser, I don't think many members of the community will - once they discover his secret vice - think twice about labeling the man an evil monster. All of his public good deeds are actually rather small acts which barely rise above the level of neutrality. They create a few small moments of weal and health, compared to a potential lifetime of pain, suffering, and mental unhealthy in the man's victims. The two things aren't even comparable. They are clearly a public show that does not reflect the man's real character, which is better reflected in his private acts. We in the real world recently had a series of scandals in which public figures who had squeaky clean public images, or which had received awards for their meritorious public statements regarding women, in reality behaved in this way in order to create a plausible front behind which they could safely engage in abusive and nefarious behavior.

I don't see how risking his life a dozen times to run into a burning home for the elderly, saving several little old ladies and standing tall and strong against the evil cult are "rather small acts which barely rise above the level of neutrality." And those just a few of his amazingly good acts. I specified that he was quintessential lawful good outside of his one dark secret. It's rather unfair to try and minimize the rest of his great deeds.

I tend to prefer in my games to have what is on the sheet reflect the characters actual alignment, and trust my players to play character's in a nuanced and complicated fashion. Of course, they don't always do that, but at least then the player has no excuse for not knowing how I judge the character's actions. So, at my table, the child abuser would certainly be evil of some sort and the player would be expected to know that, regardless of what the character believed about himself. The character can believe that he is Lawful Good, and that he has a right to perform the abuse, and that it's for the best in some fashion or whatever other monstrous justification he gives himself. I'd be very uncomfortable with a player acting out a character in a monstrous fashion of any sort, and not realizing that the character was a monster. Heck, when it comes to a PC actually being a sexual abuser of children, I think I'd probably have to put a stop to that OOC because that would be some seriously sick crap.

That's why it was an NPC, not a PC. ;)

In any case, if the player is playing a "nuanced and complicated character," that character isn't going to fall within a single alignment. Real people have personalities with aspects that fall within 2, 3, and even 4 or more alignments.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So you're claiming that there has never been a government we would classify as LE? :confused:

Nope. Not what I said. I only pointed out that the existence of the Mafia and other LE small groups disproves the claim that LE "sacrifices itself for the benefit of society as a whole." That's an untrue statement. Hell, when push comes to shove, a LE individual will often fail to sacrifice himself for the Mafia. A belief in law does not mean that a LE individual gives up on his survival.
 

Oofta

Legend
Nope. Not what I said. I only pointed out that the existence of the Mafia and other LE small groups disproves the claim that LE "sacrifices itself for the benefit of society as a whole." That's an untrue statement. Hell, when push comes to shove, a LE individual will often fail to sacrifice himself for the Mafia. A belief in law does not mean that a LE individual gives up on his survival.

Thanks, I didn't understand what you were trying to say. As far as sacrificing themselves for the cause, that's going to depend on a lot of factors. During WW II kamikaze pilots willingly sacrificed themselves for Imperial Japan on a regular basis. There are many stories of soldiers (and civilians) sacrificing themselves for their country.

As far as the otherwise LG person with the "dark secret" I completely disagree. No amount of good acts will balance out acting on evil desires.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Being absolutely pure in an alignment means that you are caricature of a person. People are more complex than that and I doubt that a single person on Earth would fall into a single alignment.

I think we said mostly the same thing, and agree on the basic point that people are complex. I don't want to get too far into a discussion of real world cosmology, theology, or normative ethics that would have to be a part of talking about applying the idea of alignment to the real world, because invariably that would get religious or political or otherwise get people triggered.

I don't see how risking his life a dozen times to run into a burning home for the elderly, saving several little old ladies and standing tall and strong against the evil cult are "rather small acts which barely rise above the level of neutrality."

Well, those actions are far more detailed and spectacular than your original statement, which was only: "an upstanding citizen who would sacrifice himself to save the community, helps little old ladies across the road, donates money to help orphaned children". To be honest, you complain about how someone who is perfect being a caricature, but I'm not sure that Dudley Doright is less of a caricature than your upstanding heroic person who is also and at the same time a depraved serial child abuser, and who is quintessentially lawful good but also and at the same time engaged in repeated acts of depravity. I'm not convinced such a person is more realistic than someone whose worst faults are so minor, most people wouldn't even consider them flaws in their own character.

I can imagine a hero like you suggest with dark secrets, but not to the degree of depravity you suggest. Your upstanding citizen who is quintessentially lawful good cannot be quintessentially lawful good unless he knows both what honor and depravity are, and therefore cannot both be who you say he is and not know who he is. The mental stress he would be in trying to live his life when the poles of his life are so far apart would be lethal. I don't think there is any real world person who can endure the degree of division you are talking about.

In any case, if the player is playing a "nuanced and complicated character," that character isn't going to fall within a single alignment. Real people have personalities with aspects that fall within 2, 3, and even 4 or more alignments.

I think we both agree that people are nuanced and complicated. If you'd introduced that quintessentially lawful good hero, and then suggested his dark secret was something like he had engaged in affairs in betrayal of the vows he made to his wife three times in the last five years, I'd have believed this was a realistic character with a realistic flaw. But nuanced and complicated doesn't even necessarily mean flaws as obvious as that, and indeed the very word nuanced suggests something radically different than your caricature of actually a saint but who is actually also a monster.

At some level, I don't even believe in alignment as presented in AD&D. I don't want to go into what I actually believe, because it would be more controversial than claiming alignment was real.

But to the extent that I think alignment is useful, typically what I find when someone claims a radical division of alignment is that perceived incongruity can be rectified by assuming that the person has a different alignment and different motivation than was first conceived and conjecturing as to whether the seemingly disparate behavior can be unified and explained under the new motivation. For example, your "quintessentially lawful good" characters radically disparate behavior can be explained if he isn't motivated by compassion and justice, but actually motivated by vain-glory and the real purpose he has is to receive ego inflating praise for all his deeds, which of course he believes is his rightful due. If that is the case, then his abuse of the children he has bought and paid for can be explained by the same motivation. Now, the new character we have conceived lacks any actual contrast in his character. Despite the disparate manifestations of his character, he's not nuanced and complicated at all - he is a narcissistic megalomaniac and the contrast between his very public deeds and his very private ones goes away completely. Of course, real world people do have contrasts and nuances and fail to live up to their own ideals all the time, but in the case of the sort of stark contrasts you are calling nuanced (even though nuanced is the opposite of stark) if they appeared in a character background for a PC that I was supposed to approve, I'd strongly suspect that in play I'd actually see a unifying motivation behind the supposedly complicated character and not actually four different alignments at the same time (which technically violates what an alignment is).

Maybe I'm wrong there, but in 30 years of play I've never actually seen what you claim.
 

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