Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

Jay Verkuilen · Jun 15, 2019

Oofta said:
I think CN gets a bad rap. <...> For example I may have a CN barbarian who's ideals include finding stalwart companions to seek out adventure and gain fame and fortune. Who's bonds are to those in his group and who's flaw is that he's brutally honest to a fault because he believes deceiving others is a sign of weakness. He's chaotic because he thinks people should make their own rules, he's neutral because he doesn't really believe in concepts of good and evil. An inveterate gambler, he's in it because he enjoys combat and loves gold. He finds no joy in harming others, but he believes people should be responsible for their own lives.

This is a very good example of a playable-in-a-party Chaotic Neutral character.

Similarly, a current character I have is Lawful Neutral: A samurai who's very bound to the code of (pseudo-) Bushido. I could argue for chaotic because I'm going against the dictates of family at the moment. However, that's really more of a temporary thing and I've played very consistent to "the proper social order and, in particular, the chain of command needs to be maintained." I've negotiated with clear enemies according to protocol as well because, well, that's just how things are done. That same party has a Neutral Evil bard. He's on our side---it helps that the enemy involves an invasion from the elemental planes with the ultimate goal being reduction of our plane to the elemental ones so there's really no place for him in that particular order---but he is always looking out for his own advantage.

Mike Oliver · Jun 15, 2019

Hexmage-EN said:
[PF][/PF]
My biggest questions at the moment are "what would be the alignment of someone who is willing to do evil for the greater good"

Neutral Good.

Hexmage-EN said:
[PF][/PF]
and "what would be the alignment of someone unwilling to do evil for the greater good, even if it is likely refusal to do so will result in greater evil".

Chaotic Good.

I’m going off the older definition of alignment which is a little more clear to me. And these are two that players mistake for each frequently in classic D&D.

Neutral Good’s primary drive is the greater good. Chaotic good believes in the importance, freedom, and sanctity of the individual.

In my experience, many players that desire to play a more Neutral Good character choose Chaotic Good by mistake/not understanding the difference.

billd91 · Jun 15, 2019

Jay Verkuilen said:
Yeah, that's the problem I often have with CN and CE alignments in practice. There are interesting characters one could play with those alignments and I've seen it done, but... but... all too often players seem to end up using the excuse "but it's on my character sheet!" as a way to legitimate acting out. If the contract of the table is that that's what people are up for, then fine, but it usually really isn't. Ditto with written down flaws.

The players who make CN into a problem are simply problem players. They’re going to try to be problematic whether they have CN on the sheet or NG, CG, LG, etc.

Get rid of the problem players, you get rid of the CN problem.

Oofta · Jun 15, 2019

billd91 said:
The players who make CN into a problem are simply problem players. They’re going to try to be problematic whether they have CN on the sheet or NG, CG, LG, etc.

Get rid of the problem players, you get rid of the CN problem.

One of my basic rules: don't play a jerk, play someone who will play well with others because this is a team effort. It doesn't have to be all hugs and kum-ba-ya, but the group has the right to eject you if you don't want to play along.

Frankie1969 · Jun 15, 2019

WaterRabbit said:
douchebags. These are the players that steal from the party, get other party members killed, etc. When called on it they claim they were just playing their alignment.

I really wish I played in a party with a Chaotic Douchebag (CDB).

Show the party that I'm generous with friends and kind to civilians.
Upon first sign of CDB, interrupt to explain the importance of trust & good will.
Find an ally who agrees, quietly make plans, and watch for a second sign.
After it happens, at the next available down time, we flank & kill the CDB.
Look, it's nothing personal. I'm just playing my alignment: Chaotic Good.

Bobble · Jun 15, 2019

Wow, not that most DMs didn't know this by 1980...

Immortal Sun · Jun 15, 2019

Oofta said:
One of my basic rules: don't play a jerk, play someone who will play well with others because this is a team effort. It doesn't have to be all hugs and kum-ba-ya, but the group has the right to eject you if you don't want to play along.

This is why, while I don't have alignment restrictions at my table, I do have "You must make a party friendly character who is interested in adventuring."

I don't care if you're chaotic, evil, or both; you can be all those things and still move the adventure and party forward.

Bobble · Jun 15, 2019

Hussar said:
I disagree. Observable behaviour is the only determinant of alignment. Intention means nothing in an objective alignment system.

So, if a lawful person thought the law said X and so DID X when the law was really Y, you'd call him NOT Lawful because YOU could only observe unlawful actions.

Mkay.

Jay Verkuilen · Jun 16, 2019

billd91 said:
The players who make CN into a problem are simply problem players. They’re going to try to be problematic whether they have CN on the sheet or NG, CG, LG, etc.

Oofta said:
One of my basic rules: don't play a jerk, play someone who will play well with others because this is a team effort. It doesn't have to be all hugs and kum-ba-ya, but the group has the right to eject you if you don't want to play along.

I agree overall about the issue of jerks, but in my experience it's often not so cut and dried. I know certain character types can bring out the worst in some people. These players may be totally fine with one kind of character but become really problematic with others. I can think of a few good examples from my own personal experience, but a classic one is a character that really doesn't "play nice" with the rest of the group can be quite difficult.

People can also be going through bad times in their lives (relationship stress, divorce, unemployment, etc.) and act out. Furthermore, there can be social dynamics that can make it hard to just kick a player out. I also think that there can be valid reasons to say "No CN" or whatever, if the intended story doesn't line up with it. I'm not saying these issues all line up with the choice of alignment or some character issue on paper and thus can be headed off by banning a particular alignment or flaw because a real problem player will find a way, but saying "this is explicitly a heroic campaign" or "don't make an Edgelord or total loner" may be necessary.

Oofta · Jun 16, 2019

Jay Verkuilen said:
I agree overall about the issue of jerks, but in my experience it's often not so cut and dried. I know certain character types can bring out the worst in some people. These players may be totally fine with one kind of character but become really problematic with others. I can think of a few good examples from my own personal experience, but a classic one is a character that really doesn't "play nice" with the rest of the group can be quite difficult.

People can also be going through bad times in their lives (relationship stress, divorce, unemployment, etc.) and act out. Furthermore, there can be social dynamics that can make it hard to just kick a player out. I also think that there can be valid reasons to say "No CN" or whatever, if the intended story doesn't line up with it. I'm not saying these issues all line up with the choice of alignment or some character issue on paper and thus can be headed off by banning a particular alignment or flaw because a real problem player will find a way, but saying "this is explicitly a heroic campaign" or "don't make an Edgelord or total loner" may be necessary.

If I have a campaign theme, I'll tell people to write up a character that makes sense for that campaign and we'll try to work something out. If we can't, I'll discuss the issue with the player. Ultimately though, I've never seen alignment really be that big of a deal on whether or not a player is going to cause problems for the group. Some people just love playing the nihilistic anti-hero loner no matter what they put on their character sheet. Try as you might to explain that what makes good drama on their favorite Anime doesn't translate into a good member of an adventuring team some people just don't get it.

Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers

Mike Oliver

First Post

billd91

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Oofta

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Frankie1969

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Bobble

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Immortal Sun

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