Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment! - Page 20
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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolAlias View Post
    Just like it only suits a Chaotic character to not break laws or betray their friends, either of which might very well result in a death sentence?
    Well. Thats fair I suppose. If the group is allowed to execute your character for stepping out of line, then your alignment doesnt matter too much.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxperson View Post
    Um. Sometimes giving in to your own desires to the detriment of your comrades and selling them out is the definition of unreliable. Even if he did one single time, they could never trust him again.
    No, it's the definition of not perfect. In fact, they did trust him after. Malcolm did specifically when he realized Jayne was actually ashamed of what he had done, not just upset he got caught.

    This is why alignments tend to not be extremes - all or nothing one-slip changes.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolAlias View Post
    I think Jayne is probably the best example of how I would play a CN character in D&D.

    However, while I firmly believe CN is maligned, it seems to always be the go-to alignment for people that tend to be more disruptive than the average player.

    On another note, someone mentioned demons earlier - I think they actually provide a great example of how Chaotic is NOT random, but instead describes the dichotomy between collectivism and individualism.

    The Abyss is ruled by demon lords with literally armies of demonic followers. Each individual demon is a scheming, back-stabbing embodiment of CE, and yet they still are able to form armies, follow orders, etc. - when it suits them. If they think a different course of action is more likely to provide a bigger benefit (or lesser consequence) to themselves, they have no problem disobeying whatever orders they may have had.

    The key here is that they are not acting randomly - if one had access to all the same information and insight into their situation that the demon did, one might be able to imagine a scenario from their point of view, weigh the options and figure out what that demon might decide to do, assuming one also understood the demon-in-question's individual motivations.
    Agreed.

    I think someone else pointed to the reason CN attracts the disruptors. It's the one seen as most do what you want that is approved in non-evil campaigns

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ekyu View Post
    No, it's the definition of not perfect. In fact, they did trust him after. Malcolm did specifically when he realized Jayne was actually ashamed of what he had done, not just upset he got caught.

    This is why alignments tend to not be extremes - all or nothing one-slip changes.
    But none of this changes the fact that Jayne was untrustworthy.

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolAlias View Post
    Just like it only suits a Chaotic character to not break laws or betray their friends, either of which might very well result in a death sentence?
    No. Not like that at all. There's a difference between actively being forced to do something under penalty of death, and passively deciding not to do something, because it's possible that you might get caught.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ekyu View Post
    No, it's the definition of not perfect. In fact, they did trust him after. Malcolm did specifically when he realized Jayne was actually ashamed of what he had done, not just upset he got caught.

    This is why alignments tend to not be extremes - all or nothing one-slip changes.

    No. Oversleeping and showing up late for your shift is "not perfect." Deciding to betray your companions is freaking unreliable and untrustworthy.

  7. #197
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    See, I'm a little confused. We all agree that Jayne is chaotic neutral because he betrays the group. Yes? Does anyone disagree with that? Would anyone put Jayne's alignment as something else?

    So, what about Han Solo says Chaotic Neutral? He doesn't betray anyone. He's self interested, sure, but, that's just neutral. He doesn't do anything on a whim that I can think of.

    I can at least present pretty solid evidence for my alignment interpretation. Other than, "Cos I said so" I'm not seeing much reasoning going on here.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    See, I'm a little confused. We all agree that Jayne is chaotic neutral because he betrays the group. Yes? Does anyone disagree with that? Would anyone put Jayne's alignment as something else?

    So, what about Han Solo says Chaotic Neutral? He doesn't betray anyone. He's self interested, sure, but, that's just neutral. He doesn't do anything on a whim that I can think of.

    I can at least present pretty solid evidence for my alignment interpretation. Other than, "Cos I said so" I'm not seeing much reasoning going on here.
    I see Han as solidly neutral. No law, chaos, good or evil there.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by billd91 View Post
    I would rather favor Conan as a model, myself.
    Ok. Let's use Conan then. I might quibble that Conan is CG, but, fair enough, let's go with CN.

    Now, when you describe Conan, do the words, reliable, trustworthy or responsible immediately spring to mind? Not to me they don't. This is a character that gets blind, stinking drunk and captured on more than one occasion. His companions get kidnapped (repeatedly) due to his irresponsibility. He blows all his ill gotten gains immediately on wine, women and song. Yup, sounds CN to me.

    Put it this way. Would you loan Conan 20 bucks? Would you give him the keys to your car (willingly anyway)? Would you leave him alone with your wife/sister for a prolonged period of time?

    So, those would be my reasons for making Conan CN. What are yours?

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    See, I'm a little confused. We all agree that Jayne is chaotic neutral because he betrays the group. Yes? Does anyone disagree with that? Would anyone put Jayne's alignment as something else?

    So, what about Han Solo says Chaotic Neutral? He doesn't betray anyone. He's self interested, sure, but, that's just neutral. He doesn't do anything on a whim that I can think of.

    I can at least present pretty solid evidence for my alignment interpretation. Other than, "Cos I said so" I'm not seeing much reasoning going on here.
    No, Jayne isn't CN because he betrays the group. If he had been an Alliance agent in deep cover who betrayed the group, he could easily be LN rather than CN. It's not that he betrayed the group - it's because of his motivations in betraying the group. He does what he wants and is fairly mean about it. He's motivated just by cash, not friendship or personal bonds of respect (unlike someone like Conan, who would also likely be CN).

    Han's probably more CG than CN or N, though I can see him on the edge between CG and CN. He's a bit of a loner - Chewie being his only major companion. He doesn't mesh well with groups or group values which he largely scoffs at. He's idiosyncratic rather than conventional. He isn't necessarily going to stick around once the crisis is over. But when the chips are down - he's more reliable than not.
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