D&D 5E Durable Feat is weak, Healer feat is too strong

Tony Vargas · Jun 15, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
Again, that’s a lot of system. 5e runs without kit bashing. The game works. It’s functional.

It is a lot of system, sure - at least as complex as any other ed for the amount of crunch it hss out - but it's a lot of system that relies on the DM to make it work.
Try the thought experiment yourself, or just consider carefully the next time you run: how far do you get before you're making an interpretation or ruling that another DM might've done differently?

bedir than · Jun 15, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I think we can all agree the feat, full stop, should all be sky blue. If you're going to give up an ASI to get them they should be uniformly awesome, and they're not.

I think this is an example of a significant game-play difference. At my table we tend to look more at differentiation more than your table does. Only once in about 30 cases has an ASI been chosen. Players tend to look at feats as a way to help tell stories about origins and/or the way the character has developed beyond their intended path.

A Feat tells a story more clearly than an ASI.

Biff getting stronger tells me less than Biff started picking up steins and beaten people with them.

doctorbadwolf · Jun 15, 2019

Satyrn said:
They kind of are garbage...unless you have an odd ability score, and then they are awesome.

Moderately Armored gave my rogue everything a Dex increase would, and bumped my AC up to match the highest in the party. It was a hefty power boost.

If you’re a strength character, ASI Dex/Str or even Dex/Con would have probably done more, in the long run. Unless you also got Medium armor Mastery, but then you’re 2 feats deep for less benefit than two of nearly any other “half-feat”.

Tony Vargas said:
It is a lot of system, sure - at least as complex as any other ed for the amount of crunch it hss out - but it's a lot of system that relies on the DM to make it work.
Try the thought experiment yourself, or just consider carefully the next time you run: how far do you get before you're making an interpretation or ruling that another DM might've done differently?

I had to interpret and make rulings in 4e, too. It’s part of running the game.

The contention i replied to was that 5e isn’t functional out of the box, presumably compared to a game like 4e. IMO, that’s false.

Tony Vargas · Jun 15, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I had to interpret and make rulings in 4e, too. It’s part of running the game.

I can't think of a RPG that wouldn't call for either, at times. One game can be clearer and more functional than another, even by a large margin, without actually being perfect.

The contention i replied to was that 5e isn’t functional out of the box, presumably compared to a game like 4e. IMO, that’s false.

By comparison to most games other than early eds of D&D, I suppose, but the important takeaway isn't relative, it intent: 5e set out to be that way, on purpose, and for a purpose - several, really - for one, it evoked a classic D&D feel, for another, it supports DM Empowerment, subtly and not-so-subtly - conditioning or training don't really have the right connotation, and encouraging undersells the importance & power of it - acclamating(?) players to trusting &counting on the DM /over/ the system.
Contrast that to the RAW fetish of the 3e era or the balance (and continual re-balancing via updates) of 4e.

Xeviat · Jun 15, 2019

So ... to get back on topic, how much healing across the day should a feat grant?

Is Toughness (+2 hp/level) a solid feat or would you rather just get +2 con?

Would you take a nerfed Healer feat (if it was reduced to being able to be used on someone once per long rest)?

Would you take the Healer feat if it was only a buff on what you could normally do with a healer's kit (if a healer's kit could heal in a minute, but give back hp, and the feat reduced that to an action and added some extra healing)?

Would you take a nerfed Inspiring Leader (if it could only be used on someone once per long rest)? It's still granting the entire party +1 hp/level compared to Toughness only granting you +2 hp/level (so +4 to +5 across the whole party, assuming they actually take damage that day).

Hawk Diesel · Jun 16, 2019

Xeviat said:
So ... to get back on topic, how much healing across the day should a feat grant?

Edit: Read this part wrong. Less than a dedicated healer, but more than what could be achieved via magic initiate.

Xeviat said:
Is Toughness (+2 hp/level) a solid feat or would you rather just get +2 con?

The only time I took this feat was with a barbarian character when they had already maxed Strength and Constitution. I personally find it to be an underwhelming feat.

Xeviat said:
Would you take a nerfed Healer feat (if it was reduced to being able to be used on someone once per long rest)?

I think the need for a healers kit and the limited uses they have is a good enough limiter.

Xeviat said:
Would you take the Healer feat if it was only a buff on what you could normally do with a healer's kit (if a healer's kit could heal in a minute, but give back hp, and the feat reduced that to an action and added some extra healing)?

I don't know, I'd have to see the feat.

Xeviat said:
Would you take a nerfed Inspiring Leader (if it could only be used on someone once per long rest)? It's still granting the entire party +1 hp/level compared to Toughness only granting you +2 hp/level (so +4 to +5 across the whole party, assuming they actually take damage that day).

Probably not.

Fenris-77 · Jun 16, 2019

bedir than said:
A Feat tells a story more clearly than an ASI.

Biff getting stronger tells me less than Biff started picking up steins and beaten people with them.

And Biff is a uniformly less powerful character for making that choice. Your table obviously doesn't have a problem with over-attention on optimization, but that's really neither here nor there for the current topic.

In other news, Healer isn't auto-take now, so reducing to once a day makes in auto-pass for me. That's almost useless as an ability, never mind something I passed up an ASI for. I really do think the best route is to buff the currently poor feats, not nerf the top ones. Healer isn't even close to as prominent or game affecting as, say, sharpshooter, but I notice no one is running to beat that feat with the nerf bat.

Garthanos · Jun 17, 2019

bedir than said:
I think this is an example of a significant game-play difference. At my table we tend to look more at differentiation more than your table does. Only once in about 30 cases has an ASI been chosen. Players tend to look at feats as a way to help tell stories about origins and/or the way the character has developed beyond their intended path.

A Feat tells a story more clearly than an ASI.

Biff getting stronger tells me less than Biff started picking up steins and beaten people with them.

Someone called 5e feats more like Themes in 4e it made me blink a bit not mechanically similar at all but in context of what you just said I think is more about their story value, themes had a lot of story value (and somewhat like Paragon paths and Epic Destinies)

Garthanos · Jun 17, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
And Biff is a uniformly less powerful character for making that choice. Your table obviously doesn't have a problem with over-attention on optimization, but that's really neither here nor there for the current topic.

This speaks to the value of not forcing the choice

Xeviat · Jun 17, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Healer isn't even close to as prominent or game affecting as, say, sharpshooter, but I notice no one is running to beat that feat with the nerf bat.

There were plenty of feats back in the day about nerfing Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master. I feel like limiting them to -X/+2X, where X is proficiency bonus (which would buff them at the high end), and possibly not let them stack with Crossbow Expert (because the hand crossbow isn't a "two-handed weapon", and because using a polearm like a double weapon is TWFing to me).

But that's a different discussion.

I'm hearing people say that Healer isn't a must pick. I guess after the fact defensive things are less important, or it kind of works out to free healing potions.