5E Durable Feat is weak, Healer feat is too strong - Page 5
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ristamar View Post
    I don't know if you're joking, but that's actually one of the aspects of 5e some people struggle to embrace, so they continue to be frustrated that the game isn't performing to their expectations. I'm fairly certain some of the designers have directly stated or heavily implied that you're expected to go into most fights at or near full HP.

    A character's total hit points aren't meant to be a point of extended attrition in this edition (though the resources that replenish them may be).
    Half joking. I got used to 3E's cure light wounds wand fiasco, I can get used to this. I think I'll go back to my idea about improving the base healer's kit so that it's part of the inherent assumption, and just have the healer feat be an improvement upon that.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    My thinking is that a party with Healer (Heck, a party with Inspiring Leader too) plays so much differently than a party without it (them), that it makes me wonder about the groups that playtested the 6 to 8 encounters a day. Healer (and Inspiring Leader) adds so much to the day's endurance.

    That's why I want to "balance" healer by adding basic healing to the healer's kit and then having the Healer feat improve that. I could also limit it to once per long rest and be done with it, it would be a little more balanced then.
    I think feats should have a great change on play. They should be 'big'.

    There are certainly a number of weak ones that don't achieve this.

    The only ones I think are overpowered are SS & GWM. Specifically the -5/+10 bits.

    I think it is easier to remove Healer than add more cheap healing in the form of healing kits which recover HP. I think potions do that job nicely.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    I can care about two things at the same time. LOL.

    I'm starting to think the game really exects us to heal up to full with each short rest. LOL.
    Yeah, the party should be at full HP as often as they can. After each fight is ideal, but certainly after each short rest.

    Doing otherwise is just inviting a TPK.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris-77 View Post
    WoTC is pretty freakin' brilliant at releasing mostly functional product compared to some other popular game publishers *cough*Games Workshop*cough*.
    Well, when you compare things to Games Workshop you're placing the bar pretty low.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    That certainly makes it better, but I fear it makes it too good, what with the scaling. It's already scaling per HD, I don't think it needs to scale with proficiency too. And you might as well just have it regain all HD on a long rest at that point, because it's almost there.
    My way of redesigning many feats is indeed to make them scale with level to some degree, so a lot of the feats in the games I run play off proficiency bonus to some degree where there are mechanical benefits. But I do see what you are saying with perhaps it regaining too much HD back. Perhaps I will adjust the bonus regained to a number equal to half your proficiency bonus.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk Diesel View Post
    My way of redesigning many feats is indeed to make them scale with level to some degree, so a lot of the feats in the games I run play off proficiency bonus to some degree where there are mechanical benefits. But I do see what you are saying with perhaps it regaining too much HD back. Perhaps I will adjust the bonus regained to a number equal to half your proficiency bonus.

    Just know you're doubling up on hp gained. People will choose it so that it bumps their con to an even number, so toughness is only giving +1/level over it. Increasing HP healing by HD by +2 would be equal to +1 hp/level, so decide how much better healing should be vs raising the cap.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    it makes me wonder about the groups that playtested the 6 to 8 encounters a day. Healer (and Inspiring Leader) adds so much to the day's endurance..
    When to rest has always been about spells, more than hp. Sure, in the early game, you'd run out if healing, out of hp and have to rest - 15 min workday.
    But, then we got WoCLW, and did it give us an 8hr workday? Nope, the 5MWD, because casters wanted their top-level spells back for the next round of rocket tag, the next scry/buff/teleport assault, or the next buff/targetted-dispel contest.
    Healing Surges? In theory you could have 8+ encounter days - in practice, 3 or 5, because everyone wanted their dailies back (but action points were fun).
    5e characters can optimize hp endurance all they want, when casters are looking at the stark choice of rest or stop casting spells every encounter, the party will rest.
    Last edited by Tony Vargas; Saturday, 15th June, 2019 at 04:38 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    Just know you're doubling up on hp gained. People will choose it so that it bumps their con to an even number, so toughness is only giving +1/level over it. Increasing HP healing by HD by +2 would be equal to +1 hp/level, so decide how much better healing should be vs raising the cap.
    Well, in my games as the DM, I really am the one in control of whether the group is able to get a short or long rest in. Additionally, I use an action point variant in my games that allows players to (among other things) spend a number of hit dice equal to half their level as a free action. Despite the amount of healing available to my players (at one point there was a life cleric and a paladin in the party), the players always felt the encounters were challenging, and I have had several player deaths (including the cleric).

    So my philosophy is, as a player I will take all the healing that my party can get. As a DM, I have control over how much damage the creatures I throw out deal, as well as setting the rhythm for the number of encounters, the difficulty of getting a rest in, and finding challenges that expend the party's resources.

    So yes, my players have lots of access to healing. But in general, that makes them feel more heroic and allows them to punch up on tougher challenges for their level, which is fun. They get to feel like total badasses, and I get to throw the fun monsters at them sooner than I otherwise would be able to.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    Would you let someone get regenerate or mass heal from a feat? My point was the healer feat is, in effect, giving a spell slot, refreshing on a short or long rest, for every person in your party for the low low cost of a healer's kit. My point was the amount of healing it gets is really high.

    I've seen it taken twice. I've also seen Inspiring Leader taken once. And I haven't gotten to be in too many 5E games. When I do get a chance to play and not DM, the character I'm planning on making is a Bard built like a Warlord and both of those feats are on my docket to take.
    Healer gives an amount of power that rests between Magic Initiate and the racial magic feats. Depending on what use of Magic Initiate you compare it to, it may actually fall behind Magic Initiate. (not very many cases, but still)
    Requiring a specific consumable item to use it is of variable significance, but it hardly breaks the game. Few DMs will just allow infinite healer kits even without the feat, but if they do, so what?

    Quote Originally Posted by DEFCON 1 View Post
    Nothing too outrageous. Grappler and Tavern Brawler for one. Athlete and Mobile for another. Moderately Armored and Medium Armor Master. Observant and Alertness (with a few changes.) Probably a couple others I can't think of at the moment.
    I keep thinking that the proficiency feats are all complete garbage from a power standpoint. I wish that the weapon master feat gave a fighting style or something.
    I'm surprised at combining Athlete and Mobile, though. IME, Athlete is a pretty popular feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    And I think this is one of the best things about this edition, and one of the things which, over time, started to turn me off to 4e though I loved 4e.

    I hate using errata for balance issues. It results in pages and pages of errata, and sometimes errata on the errata. The 4e stealth rules for example did that. And polymorph. It was a horrible experience.

    I much, MUCH prefer the answer of, "If something is a problem for your game, here are some example alterations you can make as a DM to address it" as advice than hard-fixing it with errata. Rulings not rules is, for me at least, a much more functional game.
    Playing 4e primarily with books, I get where you're coming from. But, even in late 4e, I just used the essentials rules book for quick reference when I didn't want to look something up in the online compendium, and I'd not trade away the later Warlock errata for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    I think, ultimately, errata comes down to attitude. Is your product something that's supposed to work, and when it doesn't, that's a bad thing? Then you fix it, promptly, and free of charge if at all possible.

    Is your product not really supposed to work until the customer has kitbashed it into what he was actually looking for when he bought it? Then why worry, trying to change it is just going to screw with the kitbashing your customers have already done.

    It's a motto, not a game. ;P
    By definition, "rulings not rules" embraces system disfunction - but also encourages a can-do attitude on the DM's part. The former is not good for a functional game, but the latter /is/.
    Okay, but 5e works out of the box. It is very different from 4e in how it accomplishes that, but I've not seen new groups struggle with 5e. My own group played for at least a year before doing literally any "kit bashing" of any kind. We still play about 80% raw, if you don't count custom built magic items that use the Xanathar's Guide rules combined with the DMG guidelines for magic item creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeviat View Post
    I can care about two things at the same time. LOL.

    I'm starting to think the game really exects us to heal up to full with each short rest. LOL.
    Yep, it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk Diesel View Post
    I have revised Durable as follows:

    Durable
    Hardy and resilient, you gain the following benefits:
    Increase your Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
    When you roll a Hit Die to regain hit points, you add your proficiency bonus to the total of each roll.
    When you complete a long rest, you regain a number of additional hit dice equal to your proficiency bonus.
    That works for me. Gonna actually pass that along to my fellow DM in my group, see what he thinks. We don't like to have to remember different sets of houserules and homebrews between campaigns, so we generally decide together what rules all of our campaigns will use.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctorbadwolf View Post
    Okay, but 5e works out of the box.
    The brilliance of 5e is that the system is not the game: the DM is.

    Thought experiment: try putting 5e on autopilot, resolve to run a quick session with no rulings, just rules. Here's how it goes:

    The players build some characters, the DM describes the situation, a player declares an action - and the game stops, because there is no resolution without a DM ruling.

    And that's just effing brilliant, because, while 1e conditioned players to depend on the DM more or less by accident, 5e set out to do it, on purpose, admitted they were doing it, and totally got away with it.

    It's why I'm up to run 5e, but wouldn't run 3.5 again unless there was some real money in it.
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