qualitative comparison of RPG systems

Arnwolf666 · Jul 14, 2019

Why should it do more than any other weapon. One sword swing can take some ones head off. One dagger can slice the veins and arteries of someone’s neck killing them. One thrust of a blade through the heart kills someone. Heck one thrust of a blade through the gut will kill someone. Swinging a baseball bat and someone’s head will kill them with one hit. So I don’t see where you are going with the damage is not enough

Frankie1969 · Jul 14, 2019

Arnwolf666 said:
Why should it do more than any other weapon. One sword swing can take some ones head off. One dagger can slice the veins and arteries of someone’s neck killing them. One thrust of a blade through the heart kills someone. Heck one thrust of a blade through the gut will kill someone. Swinging a baseball bat and someone’s head will kill them with one hit. So I don’t see where you are going with the damage is not enough

Because weapons in D&D most definitely CAN'T do that. It's an intentional part of the game. Fantasy heroes can shrug off things that would kill ordinary people (or even trained soldiers) several times over. Any character above 2nd level knows that a mook pointing a weapon at them is no big deal.

In Westerns, and most modern-day genres as well, getting the drop on someone is a big deal. The target needs to wait and play along until the gun wielder can be distracted or thrown off balance. If a group of enemies spot you at medium range (farther than you can move in one round) and get ready to fire, you need to dive for cover right away. No matter how tough you are, you don't just stand there and trade shots with them.

It's a major trope that some RPGs (such as D&D) can't support. The rules actively work against it.

practicalm · Jul 14, 2019

If you want a breakdown of RPGs by mechanics and genre I would recommend you start with the BoardGameGeek database on RPGs.

You probably can get a list of RPGs by mechanic and genre which might be more effective than a forum thread.

Arnwolf666 · Jul 15, 2019

Frankie1969 said:
Because weapons in D&D most definitely CAN'T do that. It's an intentional part of the game. Fantasy heroes can shrug off things that would kill ordinary people (or even trained soldiers) several times over. Any character above 2nd level knows that a mook pointing a weapon at them is no big deal.

In Westerns, and most modern-day genres as well, getting the drop on someone is a big deal. The target needs to wait and play along until the gun wielder can be distracted or thrown off balance. If a group of enemies spot you at medium range (farther than you can move in one round) and get ready to fire, you need to dive for cover right away. No matter how tough you are, you don't just stand there and trade shots with them.

It's a major trope that some RPGs (such as D&D) can't support. The rules actively work against it.

That’s because i see hit points as a way of turning a hit into a miss or near miss.

GrahamWills · Jul 15, 2019

It looks like you want to write up RPG systems using FATE rules, specifically aspects. OK, I'm in:

Name: D&D
High Concept: Combat and Exploration in a High Fantasy World!
Trouble: Powerful characters are immune to mundane harm
Other: Loves to classify everything into types, classes, levels
Everyone knows me!
Soft spot for Dragons, magicians and Dungeon crawls

Name: Fate
High Concept: Competent characters have dramatic lives
Trouble: Infinite arguments about how to model "best swordsman in France"
Other: Name an aspect and narrate a mechanical effect
Four actions cover everything you ever want to do
Loved by people who love niche genres

.... any more?

Frankie1969 · Jul 16, 2019

Arnwolf666 said:
That’s because i see hit points as a way of turning a hit into a miss or near miss.

If that explanation works for you and your group, then you're right, D&D is suitable for any genre.

If an experienced character has a gun pointed at the middle of their (unarmored) back, but they decide to ignore it and go about their business, the shot can only graze them (at worst).

For me and mine, that doesn't work at all. It wouldn't feel like a Western, it would feel like D&D in a cowboy costume. Boromir and Conan can keep fighting with a dozen projectiles embedded in them, but Billy the Kid and Jesse James can't (same with Malcolm Reynolds and Jayne Cobb). I need the rules of the game to obey the rules of the genre.

Beleriphon · Jul 16, 2019

One thing I'd include beyond dice mechanics and other stuff: How long does it take to make a character once you know how?

My suggestions:

Extra Short: 5 minutes or less
Short: 20 minutes or less
Medium: 20 to 30 minutes
Long: Up to 60 minutes
Extra Long: Over 60 minutes

Arnwolf666 · Jul 16, 2019

Frankie1969 said:
If that explanation works for you and your group, then you're right, D&D is suitable for any genre.

If an experienced character has a gun pointed at the middle of their (unarmored) back, but they decide to ignore it and go about their business, the shot can only graze them (at worst).

For me and mine, that doesn't work at all. It wouldn't feel like a Western, it would feel like D&D in a cowboy costume. Boromir and Conan can keep fighting with a dozen projectiles embedded in them, but Billy the Kid and Jesse James can't (same with Malcolm Reynolds and Jayne Cobb). I need the rules of the game to obey the rules of the genre.

You can say the same thing about a dagger to the throat or a sword to the back.

Arnwolf666 · Jul 16, 2019

Frankie1969 said:
If that explanation works for you and your group, then you're right, D&D is suitable for any genre.

If an experienced character has a gun pointed at the middle of their (unarmored) back, but they decide to ignore it and go about their business, the shot can only graze them (at worst).

For me and mine, that doesn't work at all. It wouldn't feel like a Western, it would feel like D&D in a cowboy costume. Boromir and Conan can keep fighting with a dozen projectiles embedded in them, but Billy the Kid and Jesse James can't (same with Malcolm Reynolds and Jayne Cobb). I need the rules of the game to obey the rules of the genre.

You can say the same thing about a dagger to the throat or a sword to the back. Many soldier have been grazed several times in battle or shot and kept fighting. Do you play roleplaying games to be killed in one hit? save or die is not popular anymore. Although i like it sometime. I just view hit points as a way of preventing those situations as happening. They can’t happen until you don’t have enough hit points to stop it from happening. The hero will be faster and turn as the bullet that would have been fatal grazes him lightly on the side. The hero sees a glint at a distance of the sniper before he pulls the trigger. The damage is 400. The hero has 410 hit points. It grazes him. The gun is at the heroes back. The villain fires doing 1 million damage. The heroes has 1 million and 1 hit points. The hero turns as the villain pulls the trigger and is grazes.

I’m a sleep. Etc. etc. etc.

Frankie1969 · Jul 23, 2019

Arnwolf666 said:
You can say the same thing about a dagger to the throat or a sword to the back.

Yes, you're absolutely right. D&D is not designed to handle the "villain takes a hero hostage with a knife held at the throat" scene. It's a flaw I'm willing to tolerate in fantasy gaming, because great fantasy heroes are allowed to be nigh-indestructible demigods. Same with superhero and similarly oversized genres.

In more "realistic" genres like western, modern action-adventure, and space opera, it's intolerable. There need to be circumstances where a single properly-placed hit can endanger the life of any human, no matter how well-trained. Those circumstances should almost always be surmountable with well-chosen teamwork or trickery, but the wrong choices may lead to disaster. For those games I prefer a rule system that separates the numbers for bodily health and skillful damage avoidance.