[5E] Urban Intrigue Campaign - Gating the Sandbox

Ovinomancer · Jun 20, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Why thank you good sir. Failing a PDF the SRD will do me juts fine. I do love new rule sets.

You can buy the PDF from Evil Hat Games.

Fenris-77 · Jun 20, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
You can buy the PDF from Evil Hat Games.

I do not purchase new RPGs sight unseen. If your bookcase is anything like mine it is littered with the dead dreams of hundreds of impulse RPG purchases. I try to be a little more discerning about that now than I was in my more intemperate youth. I'm combing through the SRD now though, and I will, as seems appropriate, purchase a copy if I like it. Again, thanks.

Ovinomancer · Jun 20, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
I do not purchase new RPGs sight unseen. If your bookcase is anything like mine it is littered with the dead dreams of hundreds of impulse RPG purchases. I try to be a little more discerning about that now than I was in my more intemperate youth. I'm combing through the SRD now though, and I will, as seems appropriate, purchase a copy if I like it. Again, thanks.

I'm confused. You were looking for a PDF, but to buy? Did you think that the publishers would just give it away?

Yaarel · Jun 20, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
@Yaarel - Yeah, non-lethal combat is something that needs to be dealt with. So far I'm just going with declared non-lethal, at least conceptually, and I'm going to let the PCs decide, probably at the onset of combat. That part is easy. Subdual damage is a place where I can legitimately push nova damage builds too, up to a point. If you want to knock out the guard sergeant, who's a 3rd level fighter nothing short of a big nova, declared non-lethal, will get it done. Actual high nova builds aren't going to be a big part of my campaign, but I do think it's a great way for rogue dips to have a little niche utility and actually quite fluffy relative to what backstab is supposed to represent.

I am in the D&D camp that views hit points as both physical and nonphysical (stamina, alertness, skill, luck, etcetera). So, for me,

ALL DAMAGE IS SUBDUAL DAMAGE

until the magical number of ‘zero’.

Zero is when the serious contact happens. Zero is when a lethal blow actually lands. Anything else is just fencing.

So, instead of a blade thru the heart − at zero − the attacker can instead land a punch in jaw to knock the opponent out − or whatever. Zero is when the opponent loses control, and the attacker has total control.

In this context, there are no mechanical conditions or consequences until reaching zero, and therefore no actual injuries, until reaching zero.

Especially in this traditional understanding of hit points (as articulated by Gygax), the more recent tradition of the ‘bloodied condition’ is useful. Bloodied is a kind of landmark, that separates the boundary from strictly nonphysical hit point loss, to semi-physical hit point loss requiring bandages and the medieval equivalent of sunglasses to hide a black eye.

In any case, using the zero as the moment of life-or-death, and of total loss of control, is excellent for an urban setting.

Because zero is the magic number, 5e already works excellently for urban campaigns and nonlethal combat. Making use of the bloodied condition is just an additional excellency.

Yaarel · Jun 20, 2019

I want to point out, Gygax himself caused this confusion about what ‘hit points’ are.

Gygax had a double standard.

When it came to PLAYER CHARACTERS the damage was mainly non-physical (except the Constitution hit bonus were physical).

But when it came to MONSTERS, Gygax recommended making the hit points as gory and graphic − and physical − as possible for the sake of a vivid narrative.

So, traditional D&D was doing both nonphysical and physical simultaneously. In the interests of systematization is legitimate for different D&D camps to interpret hit points in a way that prefers one tradition over the other.

For me, I unequivocally prefer nonphysical until zero. But I appreciate the bloodied condition as a kind of narrative heads-up.

And for nonlethal combat and for urban ‘police’ settings, I strongly recommend the ‘nonphysical’ tradition.

robus · Jun 20, 2019

Just dropping in to say that I've found this thread to be really informative for this style of campaign.

Fenris-77 · Jun 20, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
I'm confused. You were looking for a PDF, but to buy? Did you think that the publishers would just give it away?

Not at all, but I'm not going to buy it with no idea what's in it either. This is why I miss my FLGS. I like to take a quick spin through a book before I buy it. The site you directed me to is perfect.

Fenris-77 · Jun 20, 2019

Yaarel said:
I want to point out, Gygax himself caused this confusion about what ‘hit points’ are.

Gygax had a double standard.

When it came to PLAYER CHARACTERS the damage was mainly non-physical (except the Constitution hit bonus examples were pretty physical).

But when it came to MONSTERS, Gygax recommended making the hit points as gory and graphic − and physical − as possible for the sake of a vivid narrative.

So, traditional D&D was doing both nonphysical and physical simultaneously. In the interests of systematization is legitimate for different D&D camps to interpret hit points in a way that prefers one tradition over the other.

For me, I unequivocally prefer nonphysical until zero. But I appreciate the bloodied condition as a kind of narrative heads-up.

And for nonlethal combat and for urban ‘police’ settings, I strongly recommend the ‘nonphysical’ tradition.

One way to handle this that I've used in the past that I may reuse is to call the first hit die your 'meat', and the rest of it skill or whatever. At least for PCs. The only differnece between the two the last time I used it was to prevent healing overflow from one to the other. Meat first, then the skill, and resting only got you back a single meat point. It's not actually that much different from the system as-is, but i found it useful from a narrative standpoint. (so it sounds like we play that similarly)

My approach to the monsters vs PCs is pretty traditionally Gygaxian, with the exception in some campaigns of leveled Character Class NPCs.

StreamRunner · Jan 28, 2021

So did you ever publish this system? I'd love to have a copy of it. Dungeon Masters Guild - is a great place to "sell" it if you haven't published it yet. Otherwise, can you drop it in a reply for us all?

Thanks,

Charlaquin · Jan 28, 2021

Fenris-77 said:
I'm in the midst of writing up an intrigue heavy urban campaign. If you've read the Gentlemen Bastards by Scott Lynch, that's sort of what I'm aiming for. Combat will feature, as will chases, as will heists and a bunch of additional social interaction stuff that's going to need a rules overlay, and which is not the focus of this post. What I wanted to talk about was gating an urban campaign environment.

In a big dungeon crawl, the various areas of the dungeon that are keyed to PC level are usually gated somehow, and there's an inherent sense of progress when the party makes it to a new part of the dungeon. I'd like to accomplish this for a large urban environment that is designed to be a long term campaign setting, let's say 10 or 12 levels. For simplicity's sake lets use Waterdeep as our default exemplar.

In most campaigns, the city as setting is pretty sandboxy. Players can go where they like, mostly, and talk to whom they like. I want the city to function more like a mega-dungeon. I want the players to have to work to access certain parts of the city, and more importantly, to access new and higher ranks of NPCs. I have some ideas about how to accomplish that, and I'll list them in a moment, but I thought I'd access the breadth and depth of experience here to brainstorm some additional ideas.

Here's the current set of ideas I'm working with

1. Papers Please. Adding some bureaucracy, specifically identity papers and the like as necessary to move around various parts of the city. Start with basic residency papers, and add one other elements to gain access to, for example, the Guild Quarter, or various Noble Enclaves. Not a hard gate, but it would add some complexity, plus a nice use for forgery.

2. Actual Walls. Not my most original idea, but walling off various sections of the city helps keep things discrete, and helps delineate who's allowed to be where. Plus you can add internal guard posts to check papers, wagon contents and whatnot.

3. Social Stratification. This one is the big enchilada. I'd like to use a Reputation stat and mechanic set to gate access to higher ranked individuals and events. Social access and influence is the currency of medieval and Renaissance society, and I'd like characters to make measurable progress and set definite goals about making this happen. You don't just walk into the Baron's Winter Ball, you either have the reputation to get invited on your own, or you manufacture circumstances to finagle an invitation from someone else who has the requisite reputation.

That's what I'm working with so far...

None of this is really intended to railroad the party. It's intended to give measurable goals and non-XP rewards to the social interaction pillar. I have a set of rules in mind to manage social interaction downtime, contact building and favor holding, and some rules to help run large social events as a series of encounters with an obvious teleos. That part is still a work in progress, but I'd like to know what other fanciness people have come up with to make long term urban campaigns work.

Seems like Baldur’s Gate would suit your needs here well, what with its class-stratified districts separated by literal walls.