D&D 5E Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So a vegetarian that regularly eats meat is still a vegetarian? Can't argue with logic like that. Literally. There's no point because it defies all logic and definitions.

Just applying your analogy to 5e druids. You see, 5e druids are still druids if they wear metal armor. There is no rule or even fluff that says they stop being druids. If you're going to make the False Equivalence of comparing druids to vegetarians, I'm going to point out the illogic and take the False Equivalence all the way.

Huh. Last time I checked, the DM was the arbiter of the rules. Did they change that when I wasn't looking? Hmm.

Nope, intro of the DMG: "as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them."

If the DM is a jerk when he arbitrates, he will lose his players.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Since I am talking about the players agreeing to the rules they chose to play with, this reply seems to make no sense. We agreed to normal shortswords doing d6 damage with noted exceptions for specific changes too, but if Joe decides that to solve problem ABC on the fly his shortsword now does 10d15 then hey, there is an issue.

Now, of course, maybe we added to our table rules something like plot points and gave them the ability to suspend certain restrictions for short time or enabling 10d15 damage weapons - that is obviously different.

Things change during gameplay, though. A druid might be willing to put on metal armor in order to save a forest or something else important to the character. When choosing druid, the player does not agree to let the character's character die in order to maintain no armor. If the only option to stay true to the character is to don metal armor briefly, the player can have his druid do that. A DM who says no doesn't deserve the job.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A druid typically wears leather, studded leather, or hide armor, and if a druid comes across scale mail made of a material other than metal, the druid might wear it. If you feel strongly about your druid breaking the taboo and donning metal, talk to your DM. Each class has story elements mixed with its game features; the two types of design go hand in hand in D&D, and the story parts are stronger in some classes than in others. Druids and paladins have an especially strong dose of story in their design. If you want to depart from your class’s story, your DM has the final say on how far you can go and still be considered a member of the class


To be clear, then, you believe the developer and publisher, except when the RAW disagree with you, and except when the Sage Advice says that if you don't like the rule, ask your DM to change

Except that the word rule never appears in that paragraph. It deliberately uses the word story, because it's a fluff "restriction."
 




Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Session 0... everyone agrees to a no PvP game.

Session 1, player A tries to stab player B's character
The DM tells the player he can't do that, they agreed to no PvP
Player A cries 'whaaa, stop railroading meeeee!!!'
Random people on the internet tell the DM to stop being a tyrant!

Give me strength!!! ;)

This is a False Equivalence. There is no such agreement when choosing to play a druid. Aberrant class behavior is a common happening. Paladins fall. Clerics used to lose their powers from straying from the faith. Druids used to lose their powers when they donned metal armor. There is nothing inherent in a class that says that I can never, ever, under any circumstance, deviate from the class norms. Here's another example from 1e that shows it.

"Monks are monastic aesthetics who practice rigorous mental and physical training and discipline in order to become superior. Therefore they must always be lawful in alignment, although they can be evil, good, or neutral with respect to their approach to lawfulness. A monk who for any reason loses this lawful alignment loses all monk abilities and must begin again as a first level character."

"Must always be lawful" is no less a restriction than "can't wear metal armor" or "won't wear metal armor." Yet the monk can in fact choose to go against that absolute restriction. He just faces the in game consequence, like the druid's loss of magical abilities while in metal armor.
 

Ohmyn

First Post
"Will not" is quite sufficient, it is clear, and backed up by Sage advice - 'it's up to the DM, not the player'. The DM is the final arbiter, has right of veto, defines the setting and the rules to be used.

That part of the Sage Advice has nothing to do with the RAW though. The DM has the right to veto or be final arbiter of anything, but that point has no bearing in a RAW discussion. The Sage Advice said that the Druid possesses the ability to wear the armor, and that nothing in the game system penalizes or stops them from doing so. That's the RAW. The fact that you should talk to your DM so that you don't do anything that goes against the world they have created is merely a general RAI reminder, but the fact that the DM gets final say is not a RAW factor.

You don't comprehend the meaning of the word 'rules'

'Taboo' DOES limit the character actions if the group as a whole respect the Lore - if they don't, well it's up to them. Thankfully I've never found a group like that... I've seen a few players with the 'it's all about ME' attitude, they've typically lasted 1-4 sessions before being shown where the door is and instructed to close it on the way out.

Taboo does not limit character actions if the group is playing RAW, unless there are RAW penalties for the behavior. I'm discussing RAW. It's fine to have a table that plays with the lore as physical restrictions that dictate actions they can perform, but that's not how it's written into the game system. That would be a table playing what they consider to be RAI, but it's not RAW. You can punish a Cleric in 5E for denouncing their deity, but that's not in the RAW.

You're willfully ignoring/misinterpreting 1E rules, especially regarding proficiencies.

I've only pasted them as written, and then applied standard reading comprehension to them. If performing A causes B, then the consequence of performing A is B. The fact that B happens as a result of A never imposes the idea that A is literally impossible to perform. If you think it does, then you're simply not applying common sense logic to your reading.

You're branding anyone who disagrees with you 'dumb', never a good stance to take.

No, I've never done that. You simply don't seem to understand what I'm saying, even though I've tried to clarify in multiple ways. I even used an example of how I was dumb at something, not because I would consider myself dumb as a person, but because I and everyone else simply didn't understand how a new thing worked at the time compared to the exact same people years later when the idea was more mainstreamed and the internet had more community interaction on the topic.

I'm not saying any one person is dumb, I'm saying that when information and discussion is not available, everyone involved is inherently going to be dumber in regards to the topic than if there was. Neither you nor I would have had the tools available to understand RAW 50 years ago as we do have available today. 50 years ago I would have had to ask my neighbor and hope they knew better, but today I can shoot a tweet at the creator of the game. We all have access to these tools now, and we're all inherently less dumb about the topics as a result.

Moving past that, the point is that AD&D was written with the same level of clarification as modern editions today, but people then typically read it more as board game restrictions than as a tabletop RPG. If someone 50 years ago had read in the rules that you can't wear metal because it spoils your magic, they may have been more inclined to assume that it meant you absolutely can't wear metal armor, because rules. People today will more likely assume it means that if you choose to wear metal armor, you lose access to your magic, much as it was more commonly interpreted in 3.5. Both people can read the same statement, but a better understanding of how tabletop RPGs work compared to board games can expand what the interpretation is.

You're trying to attribute modern approaches of play/design to old school rulebooks, that were NOT written as you maintain they were.

I'm not addressing the approach of play, merely how they were written. AD&D is indeed written as "You can't do A because B happens, or you suffer C consequence." People just read that as "You can't do A", which completely ignores over half of the context listed. That's the difference between reading a board game, and reading an RPG. Just because lots of people played it that way, doesn't mean that's what it was saying.

You're not listening to multiple people (who have more experience with the material in question than you do) telling you when are wrong - which you are - consistently.

And you're not listening to multiple people that agree with me. What's the point?

It is clear you've created this account here to argue stubbornly over one single issue which annoys you - and are unwilling to accept any other point of view on the issue.

I'm willing to accept any other point of view on the issue, but I stand by the point that nobody has sufficiently contested the major flaw of nothing in the RAW game system stopping a Druid from putting on metal armor. Bringing up table issues, or hypothetical agreements between DMs and players, does not address RAW. The Sage Advice said to ask your DM to make sure you don't undermine their story, but that's a general reminder that's true of every decision in the game. What they also did was clarify that Druids do not lack the ability to do so, and that nothing in the game system is broken as long as they adhere to their proficiencies. Show me anything in the game system that says otherwise and I'll accept that as RAW. As it stands now, it's standard fluff at a RAW table, because there's nothing in the RAW system that forces you to abide by it or penalizes you for opposing it, unlike Paladin tenets, but not unlike Clerics and deities or Warlocks and their pacts.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In AD&D? Yep, in most circumstances. Just because the player might be chaotic neutral, doesn’t mean the paladin isn’t lawful good. That’s what a role playing game is—you take the role. If you don’t like the lore and fluff rules behind the paladin, then play a different character. What makes the paladin isn’t just the mechanical bonuses. That’s why there is lots of text BEFORE the mechanical bits in every class entry. Designers don’t put that there because they were bored looking to fill white space, it’s there for a reason. The reason the paladin gets all of those kewl powerz is because of the lore and fluff rules.

It's not your job as DM to prevent a paladin's fall. It's your job as DM to adjudicate the actions the PC takes, such as lying, cheating and stealing as a paladin.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I’m saying that I remember a certain other interminable thread about druids and rules; perhaps featuring more disintegration.

And it turns out that I was exactly right! ;)

And this seems as fruitful, albeit with the added bonus of someone calling all the old players stupid and incapable
of understanding the rules.

I hadn't gotten to that point in the thread when you posted this, so I didn't understand it then. :(
 

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