D&D 5E Why the Druid Metal Restriction is Poorly Implemented

5ekyu

Hero
There are no rules, and there have never been any rules, that say a druid cannot don a suit of metal platemail in order to sneak into a castle. If a DM prevents me from taking that action, he is in fact railroading me by invalidating my decision.
"Druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal." 5e PHB.

There is no reference to the circumstances of the thing - is it to sneak into a castle, win cosplay, mock the paladin etc. But then they dont list or try to list all the various reasons one may use things.

So, for 5e, if you chose druid, knowing this rule and did not work out the details with your GM, then to me it's not railroading for the GM to hold this rule as applicable.

Do you see an exception in that rule that says "except to sneak"?
 

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5ekyu

Hero
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that when you read a line in a silly way that makes the possible impossible, and use that to say that an action simply cannot be performed by the player that otherwise should be possible, then yes, it's railroading. What people are somehow not getting is that this is a roleplaying game. If I say, "My father is lactose intolerant, so he can't drink milk, because dairy gives him gas," no person in their right mind is going to interpret that there is a magical barrier in front of his mouth that prevents dairy from touching his lips, else the universe tears in two as milk entering his mouth creates a spacetime paradox because it has been stated that he cannot drink milk.

If you actually apply the proper use of language, you'd know what the sentence is saying, but it appears common sense is no longer applicable in reading. Even with the Sage Advice clarifying the proper interpretation is that nothing in the game system prevents it, people still don't want to accept that, because they refuse to use basic reasoning.

Saying "you can't use heavy armor because you lack the martial training to use it" does not mean you can never wear metal armor. It means that if you wear it, you gain no benefits of its use, or suffer the game system's proficiency/encumbrance penalties, because you lack the martial training to use it. Same with saying "you can't wear metal armor because you'll lose your magic while you do." The Druid can still put on the metal armor if they say they'll do so, they'll just suffer the consequence of losing their magic while they do, plus any other penalties based on the edition (none in 5E because they are proficient in its use). Suffering the consequences is their choice to make, just as with making any other decision.

The rules say that a character not proficient in the use of tools cannot use those tools. This does not mean that the character is literally physically incapable of trying to use the smith's tools or a poisoner's kit if they're not proficient. There's no magical barrier preventing them from putting their hands onto the tools. It just means that nothing will come of their efforts to use them, because they can't perform the tasks that are listed in the rules as requiring proficiency.

If a Druid says "I put on the glove", you as a DM are railroading them if you say "No you don't." It's their choice to make, and nothing in the game system prevents them from taking the action. If the game system has penalties for it then they can deal with the consequences of their action. It's not railroading to say, "Okay, you put on the glove, but you are now wearing metal armor, so as per the rules you lose access to your magic." It is railroading to say, "Nuh-uh. No you don't."

This is not a video game. You don't get a red X over your character if you try to equip something you're not proficient in. I don't see Paladins getting DM blocked if they want to break their oaths; they're fully allowed to do so, it just so happens that most of the game systems put in penalties for when they do. Such penalties no longer exist for Druids. If they choose to put it on, there is nothing in the game system stopping it, or penalizing it. If it doesn't have penalties in the game system, and you create some, those are house rules.



Sure, that's true, if you ignore the line after it that says "Well, not actually." and then goes on to explain that nothing happens, and that the Druid does not lack the ability to do so.



Or, more logically, if it's universal that Druids suffer a loss of magic for 24 hours if they wear metal, then anyone that captures a Druid and wishes to hold it prisoner, will be able to lock metal armor onto it so they can't use their magic to escape. Never heard the story of the man in the iron mask? Same concept. I could only hope that the DM would have an ounce of sense and doesn't make the game end because the universe tears itself in half when the enemy puts a metal mask on the Druid.
"If you actually apply the proper use of language, you'd know what the sentence is saying, but it appears common sense is no longer applicable in reading."

No, it appears common sense is no longer required by griping.

See, here is the thing.

Let's pretend you font like that druid armor rule.
It's a stretch, I know.
Let's assume you play D&D 5e and choose a druid.
Common sense would suggest that you, before or during chargen, talk to the GM about that rule to see if they are gonna de facto change it for you to something you like.
But if you dont and you get into the gameplay and he does enforce it as written, suddenly its railroading?
Nah, suddenly it's a player who knew of the issue, chose the class and also chose not to get this dearth with up-front.

That's not a problem GMing. That's not a railroad.

In my experience many GMs work with players and explain rules as needed.
 

Ohmyn

First Post
I don’t know why this is still going on. Look at the definition of a rule.
1.
one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere.

Look at the txt “druids won’t wear metal armor”

It literally fits the definition of what a rule is. It’s a principal that governs conduct of druids. Just like paladin behavior, or any other number of examples. This shouldn’t be up for debate if you’re speaking English.

A person might not LIKE the rule. Or AGREE with the rule, and that’s fine. Change it. Ignore it. D&D provides good support for that. But don’t argue it isn’t or hasn’t been a rule.

If we understand the English language, if I say "I can't drink milk because it gives me gas", that does not mean I literally cannot drink milk. It means that if I do drink milk I will get gas. If I say "I won't eat your pizza", that does not free me from suspicion if your pizza suddenly disappears, because I very well have the ability to eat that pizza. That's where the clarification was needed as to what the "rule" meant, and the Sage Advice clarified it, explicitly stating there is nothing in the game system that prevents the Druid from doing it, and that there are no penalties so long as they don't exceed their proficiency.

Jut like a Paladin can go against their oath if they so choose, the Druid can go against their order's taboo against metal. An Oath of Devotion Paladin can tell a lie, just as a Druid can strap on a metal shield. Nothing in the game system stops either action unless the DM railroads their decision making. The only difference between the two is that the PHB lists potential penalties for a Paladin that breaks their oath; unlike 3E and below, Druids no longer suffer such penalties. If that was the intent, and the developers just missed it, they would have added it to errata instead of clarifying otherwise in Sage Advice.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
If we understand the English language, if I say "I can't drink milk because it gives me gas", that does not mean I literally cannot drink milk. It means that if I do drink milk I will get gas. If I say "I won't eat your pizza", that does not free me from suspicion if your pizza suddenly disappears, because I very well have the ability to eat that pizza. That's where the clarification was needed as to what the "rule" meant, and the Sage Advice clarified it, explicitly stating there is nothing in the game system that prevents the Druid from doing it, and that there are no penalties so long as they don't exceed their proficiency.

Jut like a Paladin can go against their oath if they so choose, the Druid can go against their order's taboo against metal. An Oath of Devotion Paladin can tell a lie, just as a Druid can strap on a metal shield. Nothing in the game system stops either action unless the DM railroads their decision making. The only difference between the two is that the PHB lists potential penalties for a Paladin that breaks their oath; unlike 3E and below, Druids no longer suffer such penalties. If that was the intent, and the developers just missed it, they would have added it to errata instead of clarifying otherwise in Sage Advice.



Read the definition of rule I provided. Clearly you don’t have an understanding of it.

I have no idea where this position that it’s not a rule unless it’s physically impossible to do so comes from, but that’s not what rules mean. It quite clearly talks about principals that govern behavior. I mean, it’s literally in the definition.
 

5ekyu

Hero
If we understand the English language, if I say "I can't drink milk because it gives me gas", that does not mean I literally cannot drink milk. It means that if I do drink milk I will get gas. If I say "I won't eat your pizza", that does not free me from suspicion if your pizza suddenly disappears, because I very well have the ability to eat that pizza. That's where the clarification was needed as to what the "rule" meant, and the Sage Advice clarified it, explicitly stating there is nothing in the game system that prevents the Druid from doing it, and that there are no penalties so long as they don't exceed their proficiency.

Jut like a Paladin can go against their oath if they so choose, the Druid can go against their order's taboo against metal. An Oath of Devotion Paladin can tell a lie, just as a Druid can strap on a metal shield. Nothing in the game system stops either action unless the DM railroads their decision making. The only difference between the two is that the PHB lists potential penalties for a Paladin that breaks their oath; unlike 3E and below, Druids no longer suffer such penalties. If that was the intent, and the developers just missed it, they would have added it to errata instead of clarifying otherwise in Sage Advice.
Actually no, just no.

If someone says they cant drink milk cuz gas, they are using the wrong words. It may be done but it's wrong. It may be not called out but the word should be wont, not cant.

But the key is, in 5e rules they dont use "cant" ambiguously for druid armor.

They font use "cant" at all forcdruid armor.

They say "will not".

So, you know, if you the player wsnt to play a druid who "will" do this thing listed under druid clas feastures, instead of waiting yolo mid-gsme with your "rsiltoading" blow horn ready to blare its victimization wail, you should have spoke to your GM about it in chargen - just in case they fo something silly like expect you to play by the rule.

"Will not" seems clear enough.
 

Page 19 of the 1E PHB specifically states this is not the case.

I quote:

**** A thief may use a short sword, broad sword or long sword but not a bastard sword or a two handed sword

That is quite clear, nothing about non-proficiency penalty.

And on page 36 of the 1st edition PHB it lists the non-proficiency penalty that applies when you use a weapon prohibited by your class.

Also, on page 15: "thieves can not use thief abilities when using prohibited weapons or armor."
 

Ohmyn

First Post
But if you dont and you get into the gameplay and he does enforce it as written, suddenly its railroading?
Nah, suddenly it's a player who knew of the issue, chose the class and also chose not to get this dearth with up-front.

The issue is that as written it can be interpreted in multiple ways. The developer of the game clarified the official interpretation of the rule, and you disagree with the official interpretation based on the lore that existed in past editions that are now outdated by two editions over the last decade. That's fine, but don't claim the official clarification, as stated by the game's rules designer and then published by WotC on their site, is less RAW than your RAI.

The developer says nothing in the game system stops them. The developer says they do not lack the ability to do so. It is a choice, not a physical limitation. This is exactly how many people read the rule as printed in the PHB, which is why it was controversial enough that the Sage Advice addressed it. If a Druid says they're going to do so, and you say they can't, that's not the game system stopping them; that's you arbitrarily stopping them. It's no different than if an Oath of Devotion Paladin felt it appropriate to lie in a given situation, and you as a DM said, "No. You can't use Deception in this case because it goes against your tenet of honesty." It's also no different than if a Monk player at the table played like a murder hobo, and got greedy with treasure, suddenly had their levels stripped away because the character creation lore says that as a rule they will not be a murder hobo. That's not a game limitation, that's the DM choosing to enforce something outside of the RAW, which is fine, but it's still not RAW.

In my experience many GMs work with players and explain rules as needed.
Sure, and in my experience, many GMs apparently don't know how to properly read a sentence, or utilize much common sense. If you assume, "I can't drink milk because it gives me gas," means that it is a scientific law that milk can never enter my body, instead of assuming it means I have the ability to drink milk, but that as a result I will have gas, you fall into one or both of those categories.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
The issue is that as written it can be interpreted in multiple ways. The developer of the game clarified the official interpretation of the rule, and you disagree with the official interpretation based on the lore that existed in past editions that are now outdated by two editions over the last decade. That's fine, but don't claim the official clarification, as stated by the game's rules designer and then published by WotC on their site, is less RAW than your RAI.

The developer says nothing in the game system stops them. The developer says they do not lack the ability to do so. It is a choice, not a physical limitation. This is exactly how many people read the rule as printed in the PHB, which is why it was controversial enough that the Sage Advice addressed it. If a Druid says they're going to do so, and you say they can't, that's not the game system stopping them; that's you arbitrarily stopping them. It's no different than if an Oath of Devotion Paladin felt it appropriate to lie in a given situation, and you as a DM said, "No. You can't use Deception in this case because it goes against your tenet of honesty." It's also no different than if a Monk player at the table played like a murder hobo, and got greedy with treasure, suddenly had their levels stripped away because the character creation lore says that as a rule they will not be a murder hobo. That's not a game limitation, that's the DM choosing to enforce something outside of the RAW, which is fine, but it's still not RAW.


Sure, and in my experience, many GMs apparently don't know how to properly read a sentence, or utilize much common sense. If you assume, "I can't drink milk because it gives me gas," means that it is a scientific law that milk can never enter my body, instead of assuming it means I have the ability to drink milk, but that as a result I will have gas, you fall into one or both of those categories.



No. This is not right. It’s not me stopping them from wearing metal armor, it’s the text that says they won’t. A literal defined principal that guides the behavior of the Druid. Gee, if there was only a word in the English language that literally has that as part of its definition...also, a DM doing that and basing that response off of the rules in the books, that’s the opposite of what “arbitrary” means. SMH...

Speaking of definitions, “won’t” means “will not”. That is not only a conscious choice in how it’s used in language.

It won’t rain
The car won’t start

It’s a word used to describe something that isn’t happening. Nothing to do with just intentional choice.
 
Last edited:

Ohmyn

First Post
Actually no, just no.

If someone says they cant drink milk cuz gas, they are using the wrong words. It may be done but it's wrong. It may be not called out but the word should be wont, not cant.

But the key is, in 5e rules they dont use "cant" ambiguously for druid armor.

They font use "cant" at all forcdruid armor.

They say "will not".

So, you know, if you the player wsnt to play a druid who "will" do this thing listed under druid clas feastures, instead of waiting yolo mid-gsme with your "rsiltoading" blow horn ready to blare its victimization wail, you should have spoke to your GM about it in chargen - just in case they fo something silly like expect you to play by the rule.

"Will not" seems clear enough.

Yes, just yes. They've used that wording in every edition, as indicated by the examples that have been given in regards to 5E, and from what people are trying to claim from old editions, like "Magic Users cannot use armor", or "Thieves cannot use two-handed swords". The people quoting these are ignoring the rules that exist to explain the penalties that happen if they choose to do forbidden actions anyway, because the developers know that without penalty there's nothing stopping people from doing it in the game world. The same thing now is being claimed in this one instance for the Druid, but ignored in all other instances of the current books. And yes, nearly every class and many abilities do have an example of similar wording that can be cited in their class descriptions, but is ignored because there are no mechanical implications stated for going against them, so RAW they can safely ignore them.

The only thing stopping players from performing actions in D&D would be lacking the physical ability, such as a Human not having the ability to fly by default, or a Dwarf not having the ability to walk more than 25' in a round by default. Besides that it would be railroading by the DM. The Human that wants to fly is still free to jump off a castle and flap their arms, they're just not going to go anywhere but down. A Dwarf can choose to try and exert themselves against a faster opponent, they're just not exceeding that 25' without extra training. A Magic User in 1E AD&D can choose to put on armor if a situation called for it, even though it says they can't use it due to lack of martial training. The thing is that common sense and understanding of language kicks in, letting you know there was not a physical law put in place with that sentence. If it were, this would be a board game, not a tabletop RPG. Saying someone "won't" perform an action without mechanical penalties given is fluff, because as a rule they "can" perform any action within their physical capability, so long as they are willing to accept any conditions that may result.

Previous editions gave explicit penalties if the Druid chose to do so anyway, because they acknowledge it is an option available to them. This edition, along with 4E, removed those penalties.
 

5ekyu

Hero
The issue is that as written it can be interpreted in multiple ways. The developer of the game clarified the official interpretation of the rule, and you disagree with the official interpretation based on the lore that existed in past editions that are now outdated by two editions over the last decade. That's fine, but don't claim the official clarification, as stated by the game's rules designer and then published by WotC on their site, is less RAW than your RAI.

The developer says nothing in the game system stops them. The developer says they do not lack the ability to do so. It is a choice, not a physical limitation. This is exactly how many people read the rule as printed in the PHB, which is why it was controversial enough that the Sage Advice addressed it. If a Druid says they're going to do so, and you say they can't, that's not the game system stopping them; that's you arbitrarily stopping them. It's no different than if an Oath of Devotion Paladin felt it appropriate to lie in a given situation, and you as a DM said, "No. You can't use Deception in this case because it goes against your tenet of honesty." It's also no different than if a Monk player at the table played like a murder hobo, and got greedy with treasure, suddenly had their levels stripped away because the character creation lore says that as a rule they will not be a murder hobo. That's not a game limitation, that's the DM choosing to enforce something outside of the RAW, which is fine, but it's still not RAW.


Sure, and in my experience, many GMs apparently don't know how to properly read a sentence, or utilize much common sense. If you assume, "I can't drink milk because it gives me gas," means that it is a scientific law that milk can never enter my body, instead of assuming it means I have the ability to drink milk, but that as a result I will have gas, you fall into one or both of those categories.
"The issue is that as written it can be interpreted in multiple ways. The developer of the game clarified the official interpretation of the rule, and you disagree with the official interpretation based on the lore that existed in past editions that are now outdated by two editions over the last decade. That's fine, but don't claim the official clarification, as stated by the game's rules designer and then published by WotC on their site, is less RAW than your RAI."

Point if order - I dont disagree with the clarification or make my decision based on lore from past editions. You are making that up.

I am disagreeing that its railroading for the gm to enforce the rule as written.
 

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