D&D 5E On GWF and a versatile fighting style

DND_Reborn · Jun 22, 2019

77IM said:
One archetype that D&D handles poorly is the fighter who has "moderate" Strength AND Dexterity. (The mechanics really reward you for picking only one of Str and Dex and pumping it into the stratosphere, while dumping the other.) So I've always wondered if Versatile Style could be for them. For example,

Expert Style: When you make a melee attack with a versatile weapon you are wielding in both hands, you may add double your proficiency bonus to an attack roll. If you do so, then don't add your ability modifier to the attack roll unless it's negative, and add both your Strength and Dexterity modifiers to the damage roll.

...That's kind of a mouthful, but the net is that your total attack bonus lags slightly behind a maxed-out point-buy character until 17th level when it reaches +12 (the normal character would only have +11 at that point). But it's only slightly behind. And your damage potential could be enormous (if you are maxing both Str and Dex), typical (if you have a moderate Str and Dex), or poor (if you actually have a terrible Str and Dex: that's now an option, too).

All of those scenarios seem like good trade-offs; pumping both scores is costly, while dumping both can get you great scores elsewhere. In fact, the only people this style really doesn't benefit is someone with the typical ability modifier progression of +3/+4/+5 at 1st/4th/8th levels.

That is a good point, that a "balanced" STR/DEX fighter doesn't benefit compared to the maxed out STR or DEX one.

One idea I had was doing something similar so a character could add both STR and DEX mod to attack rolls, and then base damage depending on the weapon (finesse = DEX, others = STR). Maybe a versatile weapon could allow the wielder to do that.

I also find it interesting that you think the typical ability modifier progression bumps at 4th and 8th levels. Sure if you don't play with feats, but I have yet to see a player select the ASI over a feat twice in a row. We normally don't see the first ability score bump until 8th and then another maybe at 16th.

Quartz · Jun 22, 2019

77IM said:
One archetype that D&D handles poorly is the fighter who has "moderate" Strength AND Dexterity. (The mechanics really reward you for picking only one of Str and Dex and pumping it into the stratosphere, while dumping the other.) So I've always wondered if Versatile Style could be for them. For example,

Expert Style: When you make a melee attack with a versatile weapon you are wielding in both hands, you may add double your proficiency bonus to an attack roll. If you do so, then don't add your ability modifier to the attack roll unless it's negative, and add both your Strength and Dexterity modifiers to the damage roll.

Hmm...

How about refining it a little?

Expert Style: When you make a melee attack with a versatile weapon with which you are proficient that you are wielding in both hands, you may add your proficiency bonus instead of your ability modifer to an attack roll. If you do so, add both your Strength and Dexterity modifiers to the damage roll.

This separates adding the proficiency bonus for being proficient with the weapon with the proficiency bonus you add the second time instead of the stat modifier, allowing one or the other to be separately modified. I've dropped the negative stat modifiers from the d20 roll because this is about proficiency and they get applied to the damage roll.

Quartz · Jun 23, 2019

On reflection, that really is too good by far. Both on the hitting side and the doing damage side. For the former, why bother boosting Str or Dex when you can just take this feat? For the latter, it could get abused if a PC has a Belt of Giant Strength or Gauntlets of Dexterity or both, and even without, a PC can cheaply get +4 damage.

Fighting styles generally give a +1 or +2 and this is way beyond that. It's far too good for a feat, even.

snickersnax · Jun 24, 2019

Maybe the difficulty coming up with a satisfying GWM-like feat for versatile weapons is because GWM so unsatisfying.

77IM · Jun 24, 2019

Quartz said:
On reflection, that really is too good by far. Both on the hitting side and the doing damage side. For the former, why bother boosting Str or Dex when you can just take this feat? For the latter, it could get abused if a PC has a Belt of Giant Strength or Gauntlets of Dexterity or both, and even without, a PC can cheaply get +4 damage.

Fighting styles generally give a +1 or +2 and this is way beyond that. It's far too good for a feat, even.

This does give a +1 or +2, though. The attack bonus of this style is usually 1 or 2 points lower than someone maxing their ability score -- and if you dump both Str and Dex, your damage will be garbage, too. For maxxing damage, cheaply getting +4 or even +5 is totally fine, since that's within the +2 appropriate to a fighting style. At high levels it's possible to really cheeseball and get a total damage bonus of +8 or even +10 but it requires a lot of sacrifices and/or magic items, so I'm not too worried about it. (Although an easy fix would be to cap the damage from Str+Dex at +7, which is 2 points higher than someone who maxes a single score to +5).

Quartz · Jun 25, 2019

77IM said:
This does give a +1 or +2, though.

I disagree. Take a PC with Str 16 Dex 16. You're giving +3 damage. Don't get me wrong: I like the intent of the feat but the implementation needs some work. The problem isn't how the style is intended to be used but how it can be abused.

77IM · Jun 26, 2019

Quartz said:
I disagree. Take a PC with Str 16 Dex 16. You're giving +3 damage.

But -1 attack. That seems like a fair trade-off and within the 2-point limit.

The easiest fix would be to limit the Str+Dex damage somehow. Limiting it to your Proficiency bonus +2 seems like it would track well against ASIs. I also thought about doing: add the LOWER of Str and Dex to damage. That's pretty harsh, though, and it would still need a bonus somewhere in order to make the style actually competitive.

FrogReaver · Jun 27, 2019

What if instead of computing attack and damage the standard way, you could choose to instead compute it this way:

Damage = (Dexterity)/2 + Strength - 7 -> compute modifier (Max +5)
Attack = (Strength) / 2 + Dexterity - 7 -> compute modifier (Max +5)

Anytime strength or dex is less than 14 then its better to use standard calc
14/14 is like 14/14
15/15 is like 15/15 or (16/16 if rounding up)
16/16 is like 17/17
17/16 is like 18/17 or (18/18 if rounding up)
18/16 is like 19/18
18/17 is like 19/19 or (20/19 if rounding up)
18/18 is like 20/20
19/16 is like 20/18 or (20/19 if rounding up)
19/17 is like 20/19 or (20/20 if rounding up
19/18 is like 20/20

Cap'n Kobold · Jun 27, 2019

Quartz said:
I disagree. Take a PC with Str 16 Dex 16. You're giving +3 damage. Don't get me wrong: I like the intent of the feat but the implementation needs some work. The problem isn't how the style is intended to be used but how it can be abused.

I don't see this situation as a problem: this will have a very high cost in terms of ability score assignment at character creation.

However your point about magic items that boost a stat is a very good one.

Quartz · Jun 28, 2019

I think this emphasis on damage is the wrong way to go and far too complex.

I think that versatile weapons are so varied that we might be better to look at two or more styles. Adding the Reach property might be appropriate for weapons like the Quarterstaff and the Spear, and a re-roll like GWF for weapons like the Trident and the Battleaxe.

D&D 5E On GWF and a versatile fighting style

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Quartz

Hero

Quartz

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snickersnax

Explorer

77IM

Explorer!!!

Quartz

Hero

77IM

Explorer!!!

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Cap'n Kobold

Hero

Quartz

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