The urban fantasy market seems awfully stagnant

Tony Vargas · Jun 25, 2019

BoxCrayonTales said:
Sorry. I'm still prone to apoplexy whenever I see someone claiming World of Darkness is superior to Chronicles of Darkness.

I guess I did say "better," but it was in the interest of humor and sarcasm. I /did/ like the crazy way the M:tA Paradigm rubric let you mash genres (to say the least), and didn't find it in the little I saw of M:tA*** - but I'd really already lost interest in Storyteller by the time the nWoD came out, so everything that followed - including all your obvious trauma** - wasn't on my radar.

I also liked the idea, that the oWoD never really went for, of the non-supernatural world /seeming/ just like our own, that only once you get Embraced or Awakened or whatever, do you get to see behind the curtain. WWGS never quite went there, the oWoD was always "the Goth-Punk World," a darker reality with fictional evil corporations and whatnot that were just not-up-for-debate evil. And, y'know, flying buttresses on the local McDonalds.*

I have my work cut out for me. I'll try to post some world building later when I get more time.

I suppose it's clear enough where you're coming from, but still I don't quite see where you're going. If D&D's support for different settings (which are, ultimately, not all that different, since D&D mechanics just don't cover a huge range) is what you're aiming for, I honestly think you should aim higher.

* that's an in-joke. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one in on it.

** I've got the old Post Traumatic Edition-war Syndrome, m'self, just a different war between different editions of a different game. So I get being triggered by "better."

*** (and, no, I'm not letting the 'A' thing go, it's like they wanted the confusion... or should I say Ambiguity?)

Umbran · Jun 26, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
Mage is bonkers. I don't hate the basic system though.

Our group described Mage: The Ascension as the best game when in the right hands, and the absolute worst game when in the wrong hands.

It's probably easier to just use Fate or something.

Given that FATE has The Dresden Files right there for you to manipulate to your whims, yeah, that'd be a good alternative.

dbm · Jun 26, 2019

In a moment of serendipity, this just dropped into my inbox: Ngen Mapu

It’s a new urban fantasy worldbook for Fate based on South American folk lore.

Aldarc · Jun 26, 2019

Manbearcat said:
I'm with [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] here.

I don't think the answer is a single general use Urban Fantasy TTRPGing system with theme/premise-neutral mechanics to rule them all (this almost always leads to an overwhelming GM presence in play trajectory to manufacture an experience...typically putting players in a significantly more passive position than in a game like Blades in the Dark). This is precisely why I brought up Blades in the Dark.

I think the answer is MORE niche Urban Fantasy TTRPGing systems with encoded theme/premise and a holisitic approach to system (all mechanics, reward cycles, ethos, participant authority) that relentlessly focuses on producing an emergent fiction and participant experience around those things.

Here is where I would advocate the use of Urban Shadows. Urban Shadows (and its use of the PbtA system) leans heavily into exploring through play the implications, complications, and satisfactions of "being" the supernatural (or the aware mundane). The playbook is meant to embrace the archetypes and such. From what I recall, there is a Sorcerer-esque aspect to this where you are deciding between power and your "humanity." If you go to far down the track, then I believe you retire your character and become the monster people think you are. If [MENTION=6686357]BoxCrayonTales[/MENTION] wants to explore different types of werewolves and such, then it would not be too difficult to create custom playbooks.

I also recommend Dresden Files Accelerated. I'm not a fan of Dresden Files as a franchise, but I have found its system good for creating a fairly generic urban fantasy setting. Similar to PbtA playbooks, you select Mantles for your character. These mantles are at different power levels and it does not pretend that these are balanced. But (1) it's Fate which tends to have less focus on balance, and (2) a mundane person will probably not naturally be on the same level as a fae, vampire, or wizard anyway.

I had planned on using Dresden Files Accelerated for running an urban fantasy campaign set in 1847 Vienna - an imperial city amidst revolutionary unrest that will erupt across Europe within a year - but centered around an amateur paranormal investigation society. The major benefit of setting it in Vienna was that my players - as inhabitants of 2019 Vienna - had a grasp of its location, culture, and history.

Jer · Jun 26, 2019

Aldarc said:
I also recommend Dresden Files Accelerated. I'm not a fan of Dresden Files as a franchise, but I have found its system good for creating a fairly generic urban fantasy setting.

I suspect that's because the Dresden Files franchise is as close to "generic urban fantasy setting" as you can get. And I don't meant that as a knock - I personally love the Dresden Files - but that Butcher has basically created a series that is as close to "D&D fantasy" as a genre as the urban fantasy genre gets. His world is basically a "kitchen-sink" world of fantasy and horror tropes - much like the assumptions of a "core" D&D setting is a kitchen-sink of fantasy tropes. He doesn't come up with cutesy-clever names for his creatures, letting vampires be vampires, werewolves be werewolves, wizards be wizards, and faeries be faeries, and mostly doesn't play the "everything you know about X is wrong" game with the monsters either. (The one example I can think of off the top of my head is the various vampire courts, and even there there is specifically the Black Court who have it as a specific plot point that they are 100% Draculas as per Stoker's novel. And it isn't like Red Court and White Court vampires are some unique thing that hasn't appeared before - the psychic vampire and the monstrous creature pretending to be human are both also vampire tropes, just maybe not as well-known). And where he does have setting specific things they tend to be extrapolations of existing fantasy tropes/myth/fairy tales/etc. - like the structure of the Fae Courts, or the Knights of the Cross (who are pretty clearly D&D paladins dropped into a modern setting). All of that not only makes for a setting that is very "gameable" - it also makes for a setting that is very recognizable for anyone who knows the tropes of the D&D fantasy genre.

gepetto · Jun 26, 2019

I disagree with the OP. I've used NWoD basic ruleset for a bunch of different settings. Everything from an American revolution era game about taming the west and dealing with native creatures that eat settlers while fighting off the natives to star wars and a Firefly type of setting.

That basic ruleset is very simple, fast to teach, intuitive and flexible. Its really easy to bring to just about any idea. I'm not even a fan of the core setting lore much but I've used the rules for everything for years.

I agree it would be nice to see some variety in urban settings because those are my favorite and I would like to have some more material to mine for ideas. But I dont see a need for any more basic rule sets. The various games out there already more then cover the need for hard rules IMO.

Michael Silverbane · Jun 26, 2019

gepetto said:
That basic ruleset is very simple, fast to teach, intuitive and flexible. Its really easy to bring to just about any idea. I'm not even a fan of the core setting lore much but I've used the rules for everything for years.

This has been my experience, as well. Even the old WoD, which was much more scattershot in its rules, was simple and intuitive enough to turn into almost anything. This was evidenced in the numberless netbooks that fans made in that era using that system for whatever their favorite setting was, from Highlander, to Speed Racer to Mutant, and so on.

LuisCarlos17f · Jun 26, 2019

We can't forget the urban fantasy has been very popular in the television from decades ago. For example comedies as "Bewitched", "Genie in a bottle" or "Sabrina the teen witch", but also "monster of the week(/season)" like "Charmed", "Buffy vampire slayer", "Grimm", "Supernatural", "True Blood".

Some players don't want urban fantasy because is too close to our real life, and they would rather to imagine they are in a different world, with other culture. If you live in a big city, the buildings are boring for you, but the forestal zones are enough "exotic".

* WoD is more fluff than crunch, and the metaplot in the RPGs can't be like before internet.

Dannyalcatraz · Jun 27, 2019

LuisCarlos17f said:
We can't forget the urban fantasy has been very popular in the television from decades ago. For example comedies as "Bewitched", "Genie in a bottle" or "Sabrina the teen witch", but also "monster of the week(/season)" like "Charmed", "Buffy vampire slayer", "Grimm", "Supernatural", "True Blood".

Some players don't want urban fantasy because is too close to our real life, and they would rather to imagine they are in a different world, with other culture. If you live in a big city, the buildings are boring for you, but the forestal zones are enough "exotic".

* WoD is more fluff than crunch, and the metaplot in the RPGs can't be like before internet.

See also Forever Knight, Friday the 13th: the Series, the aforementioned Kolchak, Dark Shadows and so many more.

Sword of Spirit · Jun 27, 2019

Jer said:
I suspect that's because the Dresden Files franchise is as close to "generic urban fantasy setting" as you can get. And I don't meant that as a knock - I personally love the Dresden Files - but that Butcher has basically created a series that is as close to "D&D fantasy" as a genre as the urban fantasy genre gets. His world is basically a "kitchen-sink" world of fantasy and horror tropes - much like the assumptions of a "core" D&D setting is a kitchen-sink of fantasy tropes. He doesn't come up with cutesy-clever names for his creatures, letting vampires be vampires, werewolves be werewolves, wizards be wizards, and faeries be faeries, and mostly doesn't play the "everything you know about X is wrong" game with the monsters either. (The one example I can think of off the top of my head is the various vampire courts, and even there there is specifically the Black Court who have it as a specific plot point that they are 100% Draculas as per Stoker's novel. And it isn't like Red Court and White Court vampires are some unique thing that hasn't appeared before - the psychic vampire and the monstrous creature pretending to be human are both also vampire tropes, just maybe not as well-known). And where he does have setting specific things they tend to be extrapolations of existing fantasy tropes/myth/fairy tales/etc. - like the structure of the Fae Courts, or the Knights of the Cross (who are pretty clearly D&D paladins dropped into a modern setting). All of that not only makes for a setting that is very "gameable" - it also makes for a setting that is very recognizable for anyone who knows the tropes of the D&D fantasy genre.

That's interesting. Given that it seems to be a fairly popular or well-received game, it seems to also be evidence that having a less focused, more "generic" modern fantasy setting can work well and not be bland.

It makes me want to take a look at it, except for Fate. I just can't handle Fate. Why, oh why, did it have to be Fate?