The urban fantasy market seems awfully stagnant

I just can't handle Fate. Why, oh why, did it have to be Fate?

Well, Fate seems very well suited for Urban Fantasy -- if you look at the various settings for Fate an awful lot of them are urban fantasy of some form or another. Dresden files is clearly the most popular, but I'd hazard there are a good dozen others. let me look ...

NGEN MAPU -- An urban fantasy setting that merges modern civilization with the South American myths of the Mapuche people

THE CLOCKWINDERS -- you will journey across the face of Cadvini, through aether-tained ruins and by barely-functional rail, to restore the clockwork order of the world before it is too late

ALMBRECHT AFTER DARK -- An industrial-era setting that mixes conspiracy, politics, labor disputes, and the supernatural

MINISTRY -- You are field agents of the Ministry of Rocketry, assigned to London to defend your people against the alien threat

STRAW BOSS -- Belief defines reality. Members of the Scholars of the Hieroglyphical Monad know this to be true. Some might call it a cult, but you know everything they teach is real

GOOD NEIGHBORS -- In Good Neighbors, players take on two roles: a human who must deal with the politics of this new industry, and a fairy who feels the full spiritual damage of the Industry. Can your humans enact change to make Still Hollow safe again, or will your fairies need to enact their own justice?

NITRATE CITY -- a place where elements of Film Noir and classic movie monsters combine with explosive results. It’s a place populated by slick vampire private eyes, clever werewolf gamblers, cigarette smoking mummy fatales and deadly hit men from beneath the darkest waters.


OK, I got half-way through https://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-worlds-and-adventures
The list there shows how suitable Fate is for Urban Fantasy
 

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VelvetViolet

Adventurer
I was just looking at werewolf lore, and the closing paragraph in the section I just quoted isn’t quite...accurate.

While werewolves were indeed associated with other creatures like witches, vampires, and revenants, they weren’t interchangeable. There are distinctions, especially with the first two. Those could often assume the form and abilities of werewolves, or even occasionally call on them as allies or thralls. They were not werewolves in the strictest sense, any more than a D&D spellcaster using spells to do likewise.

But werewolves proper were not ascribed much in the way of special abilities beyond the shapechange itself and a supernatural resistance to damage. Some might lead a pack of actual wolves.

Not that it needed much in the way of more powers: an oversized, intelligent wolf (or the modern anthropomorphic wolf-man) you can’t kill without special (expensive) materials or actual (outlawed) magic would be terrifying to the most people. That’s before you add in their contagion aspect.
In the strictest sense, qualifiers like witch, werewolf, vampire, etc were not species in pre-modern folklore. They were descriptions of capabilities, capabilities that varied wildly.

A witch, at least in the negative connotation, was someone who used magic to harm the community. They could do so in a variety of ways. If they stole the life force of their victims, then they were also vampires. If they assumed the forms of wolves, then they were also werewolves.

A werewolf, quite literally, refers to anyone who assumed the form of a wolf through some means. A werewolf might be a witch who assumes the form of a wolf, or someone cursed by a witch into the form of a wolf. A dead person could even rise from the grave as a werewolf that preyed on the living.

A vampire is generally a subtler predator compared to werewolves and ogres (in the comparative mythology meaning of any man-eating giant). The symptoms of being victimized by a vampire resembled a sickness, rather than being overtly attacked and killed. A vampire might be a witch who drains the life of their victims, while pretending to be normal otherwise. A vampire might be a malevolent ghost that preys on a village, and must be banished by destroying their grave. A vampire might be a revived corpse that pretends to be normal while secretly preying on victims.

Many vicious cannibal monsters called vampires in modern popular culture may be more accurately called ogres.

There wasn't really anything you could call a werewolf "proper." Their capabilities varied by story and there is no default. Generally, willing werewolves had arbitrary capabilities. Unwilling werewolves are the instance I'm aware of in which the werewolf didn't have any powers beyond the change, and even then they still retained their human mind so they would suffer.

I could not find of the sort of "proper" werewolves you claim. Bisclavret was a rare heroic werewolf, who could only change (requiring the removal or wearing of his clothes) and had no special durability. The only instance of durability I could find was an account from a 19th century book claiming that some shape-shifting witches (no specified species) had a "frozen" spell that protected them from harm, which could only be broken by silver or "elder pith." The idea of silver breaking mystical protection appears in other stories unrelated to werewolves.

Possibly it's because ghosts are, well, dead, not un-dead in a physically active way like Vampires, but dead, sometimes they're depicted as little more than psychic holograms, just re-living some traumatic moment. If there's a point or character development to the ghost in the ghost story, it's typically laying the ghost to rest, which mean, if it's a PC, you don't get to play it anymore. That's an issue.

The other thing about ghosts is that our pop culture concept of them is built on a 19th century fad quasi-religion called Theosophy - spiritualism, mediums, spirit photography, ectoplasm - it's not really rooted in ancient beliefs/organized religion or anything like that.
Popular culture has a few stories in which ghosts play a larger role than merely being laid to rest, like being roommates, paranormal investigators or outright superheroes. Being Human and Insidious are some examples I'm aware of. Although there seems to be a general shortage of long-running stories with ghost protagonists.


Yep, and it's oddly nothing much to do with the source material. In myth/legend, werewolves were sorcerers who gained an ability to shapechange through some magical means (or 'deal with the devil' once Chrisianized). Vampires were essentially evil spirits that preyed on families, slowly draining one person at a time - a folk explanation of certain diseases, like tuberculosis.

For whatever reason, pop culture took the Vampire myth and ran with it, making them into these weird super-beings. When the werewolf hit the silver screen they decided to make it a bite-transmitted curse to be more like the very successful Dracula. That's probably why WWGS went with the race-apart animist werewolves with gnosis-super-powers, to bring them up to suff relative to Vampires that had gotten the Brahm Stoker, Hollywood, and Anne Rice upgrades.
Distinguishing werewolves from wizards will always be difficult if you're trying to boost werewolves in terms of power. The fixation on wolves in particular is something I feel needlessly limits the concept. Folklore is full of were-whatevers.

I'm currently writing a treatment of werewolves for D&D, but it can be applied here. Throughout its various editions, D&D has introduced a few different forms of lycanthropy. In 2e, Van Richten's Guide codified the lycanthropy presented in the rules into heritable lycanthropy, pathologic lycanthropy and maledictive lycanthropy. Ravenloft had a running theme that the monsters didn't have uniform traits to make hunting them less repetitive for players, so in the case of lycanthropes that meant that their creation, their transformation triggers and their vulnerabilities could be quite variable.

Anyway, pathologic lycanthropy was the recognizable form you see all the time in horror movies. Hapless victim is bitten, turns into monster, wakes up without any memory of their actions. Heritable lycanthropy seems to be a variation: heritable lycanthropes carried pathologic lycanthropy but had a hereditary trait that allowed them to control their transformations and retain their memory while transformed. The much rarer maledictive lycanthropy was the result of a curse. Some curses could spread similarly to pathologic lycanthropy. Pathologic and maledictive lycanthropy were potentially curable, but heritable lycanthropy was not.

Subsequent editions introduced various wrinkles. In 3e, the distinction between the different forms of lycanthropy was condensed into natural lycanthropes and afflicted lycanthropes. Natural lycanthropes could inflict the curse of lycanthropy on others to create afflicted lycanthropes, but afflicted lycanthropes could not do the same. Lycanthropy could no longer spread like a contagious disease a la horror movies. I'm not sure why this change was made and I won't hazard a guess, but I think it bears a close resemblance to the concept of alpha and beta werewolves (loosely similar to the concept of a master vampire and servant vampires) present in some werewolf fiction like Gabriel Knight, Big Wolf on Campus, Nature of the Beast and Teen Wolf (the series). On the same note, starting in this edition vampires were divided into vampires and vampire spawn; the latter could not spread their condition either.

In 4e, lycanthropy was purely hereditary and could not be spread like a disease. Even so, lycanthropes still carried other diseases like filth fever or moon madness.

In 5e, lycanthropy appears to be purely pathological. Lycanthropes constantly struggle against the urges imposed by their affliction, represented by alignment. The only distinction for heritable lycanthropes is that it is harder for them to be cured.

That's pretty much the extent of diversity in terms of pathological lycanthropy. A lot of effort went into coming up with variations on the same theme, so why not give them other superpowers like vampires get? Why couldn't werewolves fly, manipulate minds, control the weather or any of the other stuff ascribed to vampires? Why do authors seem so hesitant to ascribe new superpowers to werewolves?

What I'd most like to see is a pitch that combines at least the same level of diversity as seen in Dresden Files with the same level of laundry list powers as seen in World of Darkness. Maybe with heavy influence from Exalted's Lunars, too. Might have to pitch it myself later when I have more time to type.

Wizards. There are actually so many, and none of them like the now-dominant-in-RPG-circles, D&D wish-grenade. /Many/ of them are really about divination, though. That's what that suffix -mancy actually mean, y'know. Pyromancers, or instance, don't throw fire around, they stare into fires to divine the future - RL practice. Necromancers didn't raise the dead, they talked to dead. &c.
Some, like Sorcerers, Shamans, witches ("warlocks" arguably not really a thing), Goetio, and others would be classes as practicing "Thaumaturgy" - miracle-working or magic with practical results. Then there were philosophers, healers and alchemists who were arguably messing around with real things, rather than magic, just real things they understood very differently than we do, and that people outside their disciplines considered magic. Like, Archimedes would have been considered a magic-user of sorts in his day.
This is tangential, but I wanted to bring back that sort of atmosphere to the fantasy genre. Rather than treating magic like some weird super power apart from nature, I always thought it would make for a great setting to treat magic as the fantasy equivalent of science and technology. Much like what Tolkien did, since he drew from pre-modern conceptions of magic. His world didn't have magic as we conceive it, it had the seen and the unseen. The "lore" studied by his ring-makers, necromancers, wizards and so forth was a science, the same science that Illuvatar used to create the world. Although the use of the term "science" might give the wrong impression, since Tolkien's world conceived of the advancements of science and the advancements of progress as being different things. It's very complicated if you aren't used to it.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
This is tangential, but I wanted to bring back that sort of atmosphere to the fantasy genre. Rather than treating magic like some weird super power apart from nature, I always thought it would make for a great setting to treat magic as the fantasy equivalent of science and technology. ... Although the use of the term "science" might give the wrong impression...
"Knowledge," "Wisdom" or "Natural Philosophy" or, well, 'magic,' might be reasonable alternatives to 'science' in that context, to get away from the modern association with the scientific method and with technology.
 

5ekyu

Hero
If I were looking to publish a setting, modern would be wat down the lists. In today's climate, any references to real world topics is a bit of a landmine. On the other hand, if you go the DC "star city, central city" renames you wind up with a touch of hokey.

So, by the time you go far enough into "it's not here" you are going as much work as a new era would need.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Saturn bases aren’t bad. Where I get confused is why there’s a need to go so far beyond urban fantasy. Scifi and cyberpunk are present from the start.

WoD had an Cyberpunk element from Werewolf on... The Black Spiral Dancers represent embracing the new corporate paradigm.

It was covert in Vampire... the extra few years and the rise of portable computing made Mage's Technocracy seem like the perfect reason for Mages to be hunted by Vampires, Werewolves (saving the BSD), and Fae.

WoD sets up each of the supernatural types to be opposed to each of the other groups, and to factions within themselves. Combined campaigns can find a common enemy, while mono-type campaigns can find a common enemy within type...

As a game artifice, it's brilliant.
The game mechanics are decent, but simple.
The archetypes are also plenty variable, providing for more playability.

In short, it did like D&D: simple to play, plenty of support and plenty of conflict, in a kitchen sink crapsack world.

It's fun to play, but not great to read stories in.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I know it's been mentioned in this thread, but allow me another hand wave very much in favor of Urban Shadows. It's really good.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Mage is bonkers. I don't hate the basic system though. That said, Ars Magica is probably a better model for Urban fantasy with powerful mages, despite the very medieval setting. I don't think I'd necessarily do all that conversion, but if someone wanted to use that WoD mechanics the fluff can always be changed. If you started with just Hunter and worked out it might not be so bad, then you flavor the vamps, wolves and magi any way you wanted.

It's probably easier to just use Fate or something.
up through 3rd edition Ars Magica, you didn't see wizards frequenting the cities... becuase cities often had low to mid level Reason Regio... which, even more than religious regio, interferes with casting severely.

One of the changes in AM 4 was deletion of the Reason Regio, and the cold war between science and magic.
 

aramis erak

Legend
That's interesting. Given that it seems to be a fairly popular or well-received game, it seems to also be evidence that having a less focused, more "generic" modern fantasy setting can work well and not be bland.

It makes me want to take a look at it, except for Fate. I just can't handle Fate. Why, oh why, did it have to be Fate?

Because the guys writing it liked FATE, and showed Jim Butcher that it could and would handle the disparate power levels just fine.

And, having played the FATE version (not the Accelerated version), it was pretty well done... but my White Court Neonate feeding on Obsession (and working at a game store) was a bit OP... not because he was mechanically stronger, but because I knew the system and was able to work FATE hard... and no one else in the group was. Being able to inflict emotions made me able to trigger the rage-monster.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
This sounds a little ponzi, but when people actually buy into the fate concept, and build characters and take aspects the way the game is designed, it's fabulous. Sadly, the game almost punishes people who aren't going to buy all the way in. It sucks if people aren't building characters and picking aspects in the spirit of the thing. I suspect that a lot of the negative experiences with Fate stem from a lack of buy in. And I say this as a guy who usually likes the crunchiest of crunch. I'm a min-maxing Games Workshop power gamer from back in the day. I'm all about the math and the efficiency and some goddamn winning. I'm talking high level tournament success over a long period. Power. Gaming. Rules. I like winning a lot. And I still think Fate is effing awesome.
 

aramis erak

Legend
Yeah, FATE does require buy in to the Aspect mechanics. But it's not a big issue if everyone is the same approach to them (either all buy-in, or none). If none buy in, it's just Fudge.

The worst case: Some of the players buy in, but the GM doesn't... They can't get the compels to power their stunts...
 

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