D&D 5E Another attempt at fixing the -5 / +10 issue

Quartz · Jun 21, 2019

There've been umpteen threads about this so what's one more, right?

Another recent thread on the TWF Fighting Style has shown that while the three offensive styles - TWF, GWF, and Duellist - are balanced in a featless game, both TWF and Duellist comprehensively fail against GWF when feats are introduced.

So I propose the following tweaks:

Archery fighting style: the range at which you suffer Disadvantage is doubled. (If you want to fire into combat, take the Close Quarters Shooter style from UA.)
Great Weapon Master & Sharpshooter: remove the -5 / +10 and give +1 to a Str & Dex respectively.
Add a new feat: Show of Strength (see below)
Add a new feat: Show of Elegance (see below).
Edit: Expertise is reduced to a plain +2; Jack of All Trades and other similar abilites are reduced accordingly.

Show of Strength

You have learned how to channel your inner brute at the expense of precision.

Before you you make an attack with a weapon that can use Strength you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits you add +10 to the attack's damage.
Before you make a skill roll for which you are using Strength as the stat modifier you may choose to take a -5 penalty to the skill roll. If the skill roll succeeds you add +10 to the result.

You may not apply Show of Strength and Show of Elegance simultaneously.

Show of Elegance

You have learned how to focus force at the expense of precision.

Before you you make an attack with a weapon that can use Dexterity you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits you add +10 to the attack's damage.
Before you make a skill roll for which you are using Dexterity as the stat modifier you may choose to take a -5 penalty to the skill roll. If the skill roll succeeds you add +10 to the result.

You may not apply Show of Strength and Show of Elegance simultaneously.

Have at it!

The Crimson Binome · Jun 21, 2019

What does it mean to increase the result of a skill check by +10? You're more likely to drown, but if you do succeed, you swim amazingly?

Xeviat · Jun 21, 2019

I always felt like +10 damage was way too much at lower levels. I also think it's way, way too much damage for a single handed weapon user to get. Combining it with bonus action attacks also feels too much. I'd think long and hard about going toward -Prof/+Prof (or +2xProf if it's needed to be balanced).

Xaelvaen · Jun 21, 2019

We changed it so that the bonus action feature (on crit or felling an enemy, make another attack) also has a non-crit function.

"On your turn if you attack with a two-handed weapon, you can use your bonus action to make a Shove attempt." In many instances of fiction, the big brute barrels his shoulders into a foe after attacking them, or even before. I know it steps a bit on shield master, but truthfully at our table... no one cares if the tank and the grunt can do the same maneuvers.

Quartz · Jun 21, 2019

The idea here is to explicitly keep the -5 / +10 by separating it out. And separating it out gives us the opportunity to apply the -5 / +10 to a second pillar.

Bother: I forgot to mention Expertise & Jack of Trades

Stalker0 · Jun 21, 2019

Quartz said:
The idea here is to explicitly keep the -5 / +10 by separating it out. And separating it out gives us the opportunity to apply the -5 / +10 to a second pillar.

Bother: I forgot to mention Expertise & Jack of Trades

But why? Why is that bonus necessary?

Quartz · Jun 21, 2019

Stalker0 said:
But why? Why is that bonus necessary?

Sorry, but I'm not following you. About which bonus are you talking?

5ekyu · Jun 21, 2019

Quartz said:
Sorry, but I'm not following you. About which bonus are you talking?

I believe the question is why the need to add the skill 5-10 at all?

Do you not feel the 5-10 a track damage is not enough on own?

My question would be different.

According to the conventional white room wisdom the 5-10 outshines everything else.

So you decide to solve that by giving every fighting style the 5-10 **not** by introducing other options that are equivslent.

So, you seem to be ok with making it do that 5-10 as the **only option*** so that everyone wanting that allegedly "must have" damage all take the same thing to get to the same point.

So my question is: why not make the 5-10 **not a fest** but default class features since you are basically setting up and giving in to everyone who wants that " must have" damage being basically required to take the feats?

Why setup a "mandatory buy" as part of everyone's optional gains?

Then feats can be used for a variety of things - not just completing your " must have".

FrogReaver · Jun 21, 2019

[MENTION=40552]Quartz[/MENTION], where's your justification that your proposed change actually fixes GWF/SS?

FrogReaver · Jun 21, 2019

5ekyu said:
I believe the question is why the need to add the skill 5-10 at all?

Do you not feel the 5-10 a track damage is not enough on own?

My question would be different.

According to the conventional white room wisdom the 5-10 outshines everything else.

So you decide to solve that by giving every fighting style the 5-10 **not** by introducing other options that are equivslent.

So, you seem to be ok with making it do that 5-10 as the **only option*** so that everyone wanting that allegedly "must have" damage all take the same thing to get to the same point.

So my question is: why not make the 5-10 **not a fest** but default class features since you are basically setting up and giving in to everyone who wants that " must have" damage being basically required to take the feats?

Why setup a "mandatory buy" as part of everyone's optional gains?

Then feats can be used for a variety of things - not just completing your " must have".

Because then the player that got the -5/+10 for free will simply max str or dex faster. So for the first half of the game it just introduces power creep. Maybe if you were playing a campaign at level 12+ that would be a good idea.