Ability Score Rebalancing

DND_Reborn · Jun 23, 2019

5ekyu said:
Actually once you step,outside the dnd/srd/d20 bubble it seems like very many games abandoned these six in favore of more or less.

Yeah, I've seen and played games with more (as many as 12!) and less (as few as 3) but you still run into the same issues. The problem isn't with the core six, they work very well IMO offering enough to make them distinct. Other games have different labels and organize abilities differently, but really it is just a new version of the same thing.

Here is a set I developed for a game I made about 20 years ago.

Your BODY trait has three scores: Power, Reflexes, and Stamina
MIND is Aptitude, Reason, and Retention
SOUL is Faith, Intuition, and Willpower

These are crossed to create your other three traits:
PRESENCE is Power, Aptitude, and Faith
REACTION is Reflexes, Reason, and Intuition
RESOLVE is Stamina, Retention, and Willpower

You generate the nine scores, and use those to determine your six traits. But, like one of the main goals of 5E I decided as accurate as the system is, it is too complex and cumbersome. Looks sort of similar to your idea, huh? But we eventually abandoned the nine abilities to focus on the six traits.

Shiroiken · Jun 23, 2019

The only change I've needed was to give Int a modifier on the number of languages and tools. This keeps it from being a complete toilet ability (negative costs you a language or tool) and justifies giving it a small bonus for non-wizards. Wisdom and Charisma don't really need anything, because they have some of the most vital non-combat skills in the game (Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception, Persuasion). Dex is a bit strong, but I can live with it.

5ekyu · Jun 23, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Yeah, I've seen and played games with more (as many as 12!) and less (as few as 3) but you still run into the same issues. The problem isn't with the core six, they work very well IMO offering enough to make them distinct. Other games have different labels and organize abilities differently, but really it is just a new version of the same thing.

Here is a set I developed for a game I made about 20 years ago.

View attachment 107231

Your BODY trait has three scores: Power, Reflexes, and Stamina
MIND is Aptitude, Reason, and Retention
SOUL is Faith, Intuition, and Willpower

These are crossed to create your other three traits:
PRESENCE is Power, Aptitude, and Faith
REACTION is Reflexes, Reason, and Intuition
RESOLVE is Stamina, Retention, and Willpower

You generate the nine scores, and use those to determine your six traits. But, like one of the main goals of 5E I decided as accurate as the system is, it is too complex and cumbersome. Looks sort of similar to your idea, huh? But we eventually abandoned the nine abilities to focus on the six traits.

The problem isn't with the core six, they work very well IMO offering enough to make them distinct.

Yeah see that is where the triad to me is a way to address what you see as the problem.

You start with "what role does those score play in its triad." Then ypu pick triads that will see significant play.

Everything smaller becomes a skill or a feat or a trait or whatever you want to call the lesser-adders.

So, really you have very distinct elements for each that see play.

The bigger design issue is actually how you want the triads chosen.

I mean, the three i presented were basically body, brains and BS - if you will forgive the aliterative nod replacing social.

But in 5e, the actual three pillars are combat, exploration and social - so maybe even then those three triads would not be appropriate.

Maybe you should have triads of - well, combat, exploration and social and then your "weapons" (be they swords or spells or fists) would all use your three combat stats. perhaps a lot of the actual physical aspects might get reflected in the explore traits - right alongside your spotting and stealth and even certain knowledge type stuff... Then the key elements like physical training for athletics and acrobatic vs book learning etc etc would be seen in the "skills" (lesser-adders.)

just thoughts - some of it i have used in play from time to time but i have not implemented a full system based on it so...

FrogReaver · Jun 23, 2019

Shiroiken said:
The only change I've needed was to give Int a modifier on the number of languages and tools. This keeps it from being a complete toilet ability (negative costs you a language or tool) and justifies giving it a small bonus for non-wizards. Wisdom and Charisma don't really need anything, because they have some of the most vital non-combat skills in the game (Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception, Persuasion). Dex is a bit strong, but I can live with it.

Why do you find knowing things to be unimportant?

bedir than · Jun 23, 2019

Shiroiken said:
The only change I've needed was to give Int a modifier on the number of languages and tools. This keeps it from being a complete toilet ability (negative costs you a language or tool) and justifies giving it a small bonus for non-wizards. Wisdom and Charisma don't really need anything, because they have some of the most vital non-combat skills in the game (Insight, Perception, Survival, Deception, Persuasion). Dex is a bit strong, but I can live with it.

After Xanathar's and Saltmarsh the importance of tools is elevated enough in my campaign that the lack of importance of intelligence is the base game essentially disappeared with the change you made.
I do have a tool proficiency for siege weapons.

Stalker0 · Jun 23, 2019

I think shifting initiative to Int is a good way to reduce the dex super stat and make int more well rounded. Initiative is always good.

The cha = inspiration is solid. Gives player some control over when they get advantage benefits.

Wisdom because of perception is already pretty good, I see it as a dump stat less than the other two.

jgsugden · Jun 23, 2019

I played this game for 30 years before coming to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. The question is not whether the abilities are perfectly balanced, but whether they are balanced enough. And they are.

Shiroiken · Jun 23, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Why do you find knowing things to be unimportant?

I assume you refer to the "knowledge skills" Arcana, History Nature, and Religion; if not, please clarify. IME, the knowledge skills are very DM dependent, especially since there is no specifically listed use for any of these rolls in the PHB or DMG. Some DMs use them quite a bit, making them very important, but seldom vital to the success of an adventure, even if they do make it easier. Other DMs barely think about them, and either give out the information without a check, make the check too high to be worthwhile, or (worst of all) having the roll give out completely worthless, or even distracting information. Obviously most DMs fit somewhere between these extremes, but it does reduce the overall value of these skills for most games. Giving Intelligence a slight bonus (languages and tools) helps make it less of a "dump stat."

To be fair, I know some DMs also nerf other skills, but at least there is a section in the PHB or DMG that says how they're to be used. I also knew a DM that hated rogues with a fiery passion, making stealth virtually impossible to use. These are far more the exception than the rule, however, making them overall more important in most games.

FrogReaver · Jun 24, 2019

Shiroiken said:
I assume you refer to the "knowledge skills" Arcana, History Nature, and Religion; if not, please clarify. IME, the knowledge skills are very DM dependent, especially since there is no specifically listed use for any of these rolls in the PHB or DMG. Some DMs use them quite a bit, making them very important, but seldom vital to the success of an adventure, even if they do make it easier. Other DMs barely think about them, and either give out the information without a check, make the check too high to be worthwhile, or (worst of all) having the roll give out completely worthless, or even distracting information. Obviously most DMs fit somewhere between these extremes, but it does reduce the overall value of these skills for most games. Giving Intelligence a slight bonus (languages and tools) helps make it less of a "dump stat."

To be fair, I know some DMs also nerf other skills, but at least there is a section in the PHB or DMG that says how they're to be used. I also knew a DM that hated rogues with a fiery passion, making stealth virtually impossible to use. These are far more the exception than the rule, however, making them overall more important in most games.

If you want Int to be less of a dump stat then create more int classes and subclasses.

Do you know why the rogue swashbuckler dumps int? Because dex, charisma and con are always going to be more important to him.
Do you know why the wizard always dumps charisma? Because Dex, Int and Con are always going to be more important to him.
Do you know why the monk dumps strength? Because Dex, Wisdom and Con are always going to be more important to him.

There's literally nothing you can do to the dump stats to make them of equal value to the stats that the classes are already going to be taking and so the main stats are always going to be more important.

Also, literally every change you make is either a buff or a nerf. If you give int a bonus that becomes a detriment when negative then you've just nerfed any class that doesn't main stat int. Now they lose something for having 8 int, effectively nerfing them if they go 8 int and nerfing them in their other stats if that was the reason they choose to go 10 int instead of 8.

I prefer not to have non-wizards be nerfed, or at least if we are going to go that route at least nerf wizards that dump strength/charisma/wisdom equally

Yaarel · Jun 24, 2019

Give Perception to Intelligence.

Perceptive people are intelligent.

Perceptiveness explains the Initiative bonus − the person perceives and assesses the threat that is approaching.

Give Perception and Initiative to Intelligence.