1E On the Origins of Classes (1e, OD&D) - Page 3
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    Well, Greyhawk.
    Gah. I was actually looking at p.4 when I wrote that, and so you can imagine where that error came from!


    So you don't have any of the insider testimonials you were looking for on that topic?
    No- always looking for some.

    BUT ... that's only part of it. As I explain lower-

    I was just looking at similarities because someone asked. The D&D Thief didn't use innate/powerful shadow-magic like Shadowjack, for instance, in fact, like Cugel, it didn't have innate magic, at all. It did use magic scrolls via Decipher script, which is closer to Lieber's Grey Mouser than the other two. There were other similarities.
    There were differences, too, The Grey Mouser was a swordsman comparable to Fafhrd, though using a rapier rather than a broadsword - and no early-D&D Thief was the equal of a similar-XP (let alone level) Fighter, that way.
    So the issue with a lot of this is that a lot of the materials were lost, and a lot of the people either forget, mis-remember, or, um, lie.

    The Thief is actually a great example of this. Gygax claimed sole credit for this (same with the Cleric), even though it can't be true. That's why, when you're looking into this, you have to balance a lot of competing factors, and come to a sort of "best guess" scenario- which is say, even if someone gives you the "magic bullet" quote, there's a good chance it could be wrong. Such is life.

    The Thief can't be single sourced- I don't think Shadowjack or Cugel are the sole sources for the Thief. I think it was largely borrowed/stolen from the Aero Games class as relayed to Gygax, with some additional Gygaxian flourishes (percentiles!). That part is indisputable.

    I think you can further trace material that is pure Gygax (or Gygax collaborators) by seeing what was added post-Great Plains.

    But what, exactly, Shadowjack or Cugel added? Don't know. I only know that Gygax specifically referred to them. Is there some Lieber influence? Maybe. Don't know. I'd love to see a reference to it!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    But what, exactly, Shadowjack or Cugel added? Don't know. I only know that Gygax specifically referred to them. Is there some Lieber influence? Maybe. Don't know. I'd love to see a reference to it!
    Specifically referred to them like he did Bishop Odo &c when claiming the Cleric as his own?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    Specifically referred to them like he did Bishop Odo &c when claiming the Cleric as his own?
    Sure. First-hand account, third party account? I mean, I know that Gygax was a huge fan of Fritz, and we have the Nehwon mythos and all that (not to mention Appendix N, references in other books, and so on), so it's completely credible- just hard, especially given that this wasn't a Gygax class.

    TBH, I have some doubts about the amount of credibility w/r/t to the whole Cugel and Shadowjack thing, but he did say it.

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    The creator of the thief class (ala "Manual of Aurania") had been an active participant over on the Paizo forums as "DrDeth" (https://paizo.com/people/DrDeth). Unfortunately, he does not seem to be currently active there as his last post there is dated December 10th of 2018.

    Here is the thread were he discusses his part in the origin: http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/37...r-class?page=3
    XP lowkey13, Laurefindel, Parmandur gave XP for this post

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    Gray Mouser was a failed magician's apprentice before he turned to a life of thievery. If I recall correctly, he dabbled in a spell or two later in his story as well.

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    So, anyone have ideas on the Assassin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    So, anyone have ideas on the Assassin?
    Have you looked behind you?
    Laugh lowkey13 laughed with this post

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey13 View Post
    So, anyone have ideas on the Assassin?
    Stealth? Disguise? Death attacks? Sounds like a ninja.

    Leather armor & shield? ...no idea.

    Ninjas hadn't quite become pop culture icons in the 70s, I don't think. And the iconic assassin of that & the preceding decades, if you even remembered he was supposed to be one, would've been James Bond. Maybe Bronson as the Mechanic. ...I'm probably missing something. Did Nehwon have an Assassins' Guild? I seem to recall they had Beggars' and Thieves' Guilds.

    The eponymous Assassins, btw, hid daggers in scrolls so they could stabbed nobles in the guise of petitioners. Not much help there.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    Stealth? Disguise? Death attacks? Sounds like a ninja.

    Leather armor & shield? ...no idea.

    Ninjas hadn't quite become pop culture icons in the 70s, I don't think. And the iconic assassin of that & the preceding decades, if you even remembered he was supposed to be one, would've been James Bond. Maybe Bronson as the Mechanic. ...I'm probably missing something. Did Nehwon have an Assassins' Guild? I seem to recall they had Beggars' and Thieves' Guilds.

    The eponymous Assassins, btw, hid daggers in scrolls so they could stabbed nobles in the guise of petitioners. Not much help there.
    I got nothing!

    The closest I get when I look around is that it was an Arneson class, and that Kask tried to "sage" it (make in an NPC), but was "overruled" (don't know by whom).

    BUT ... I can't seem to find any sourcing from the various Blackmoor veterans that there ever was an Assassin class in those campaigns? It really looks like it sprung up in the Blackmoor Supplement? And no one, that I know of, takes ownership of it?

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