D&D 5E Attacking defenseless NPCs

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
This situation is the perfect place for the Rogue to take the shot, not the Ranger. The Rogue has a built in ability that's tailor made for this situation. Sneak Attack is the only room the actual rules give a player to accomplish this kind of task (although some other nova abilities can do a decent job dressing the part). The higher the level of the PC the less it matters anyway with minion level stuff like Orcs anyway.

And yeah, sharpshooter would get the job done without a lot of fuss too.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I’m with you.

I had a game a long while back where one of my players grabbed an enemy NPC with a knife to the throat and demanded the NPC order their goons to surrender. I ruled the NPC did not do that and the player cut the NPC’s throat - for 1d4 damage.

Ineffective. Dumb. The wrong call completely. And a complete wet blanket on the game..

Yep, 100%.

It seems as though many of the players here treat every D&D combat as the game part of "roleplaying game", and thus you are just expected to go through all the rigamarole of running "the game", regardless of whether the roleplaying part of it makes a lick of sense. And in this situation where you've described... where someone has a knife to their neck being threatened... if anyone treats this as the same "game" as every other combat they run and thus the person held at knife point should never bother surrendering because it's numerically impossible to be killed (and the DM doesn't adjust the numbers on the fly to account for this very specific narrative event), my personal belief is they are doing a disservice to their story.

Now I know someone will of course probably chime in with "Well if you want this kind of story moment possible, you probably should play a different RPG that allows for it"... to which I say "No, I have no need to." I just voluntarily treat D&D as a game that can be flexible in its interpretation, including making rulings on the spot that in very specific instances in the story that the PCs and the enemies can take or lose much greater damage (or see their HP total change) than your prototypical "D&D game combat". So long as my players are aware of how or when it can happen (which they are), then everything works fine.

As I said upthread... to me, combat is just a part of the narrative like everything else is.
 
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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
I think there's a big difference between being unaware of an incoming attack before it happens and willingly lowering your defenses to accept an attack of which you are aware. In the former situation, which is what the OP seems to describe, the standard combat and surprise rules would seem to apply. In the latter situation, rather than circumvent hit points, I would say the attack auto-hits and auto-crits. This is because I see a target's AC as representing its ability to avoid hits while actively defending, whereas I see hit points as abstract plot armor and not particularly corresponding to anything in the fiction except that the target is defeated when it has no hit points left.
 

Oofta

Legend
And deer do not normally have armor over key vital spots - at least round here.


Lucky you. Around here I think they're getting ready to fight back.
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Oofta

Legend
I don't view HP as just toughness, but toughness (and difficulty to critically wound a creature) as kind of a sliding scale. PCs do more damage as they get higher level either through stronger spells, more base damage or more attacks. It reflects that they're getting better at killing opponents than when they got started. So barring really bad rolls a 20th level ranger would not have had any issue taking down the orc, a 1st level ranger might not be skilled enough to do it.

Combine that with the likelihood of hitting a vital spot and it's not easy. Even if the orc is bored, he's still moving slightly, the tree he's in may be swaying, the breeze may alter the path of the arrow and so on. So that shot you were sure was going straight into the eye ... well now it just bounced off the side of his helmet enough to cause some bruising because it still hit. Just not enough to kill. This is especially true because of 5E's philosophy of bounded accuracy.

In addition, as others have pointed out, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If a relatively low level PC can get an automatic assassination attempt, the bad guys should get it too.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
It seems as though many of the players here treat every D&D combat as the game part of "roleplaying game", and thus you are just expected to go through all the rigamarole of running "the game", regardless of whether the roleplaying part of it makes a lick of sense.

Alternatively, we say that the game rules define the role you are playing in that context, and you are defining "lick of sense" by reference to a world outside the fictional one you're playing in... and *that* doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

"Roleplaying," is not generally, "rules do not apply, do what you want, so long as it sounds good." Role playing is informed and shaped by mechanics. A good narrative must have some consistency, lest the resulting story become incoherent (as in, it doesn't hang together well, is riddled with plot holes, etc). The way things resolve has to have some regularity, or else player choices are not based in a reasonable assessment of risk and what is possible. We look to the rules to give the general form of that consistency.

And, yes, the rules have particular things to say about such situations. In the fictional world of 5e D&D, quick single-strike kills are not common when critters have multiple hit dice. The fact that a *real* human dies super-easy in that situation is not relevant. Though, your typical *real* human is not wearing armor... and the common gorget that's specifically designed to make that strike difficult. If the NPC were armored, it wouldn't make a lick of sense to just ignore that, either...
 
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Celebrim

Legend
I had a game a long while back where one of my players grabbed an enemy NPC with a knife to the throat and demanded the NPC order their goons to surrender. I ruled the NPC did not do that and the player cut the NPC’s throat - for 1d4 damage.

Ineffective. Dumb. The wrong call completely. And a complete wet blanket on the game.

I'm half with you. The knife to the throat situation is a problem, but on the other hand I don't in any fashion think it applies to the sniping scenario the OP describes.

The knife to the throat objection is one of the classic objections to the D&D rules and hit points specifically.

D&D's abstract hit point system depends on the stakes of an attack not being known until after the attack is made. For any proposition to attack, the exact nature of the attack (how it is described) is not known until after the fortune is described and the hit points that are inflicted are compared to the hit points of the target that remain. The resulting wound (if any) is then described in terms of the proportion of remaining hit points that the attack removed from the target. Thus, a 4 hit point attack on a 40 hit point target is described in an entirely different way than an attack on a 4 hit point target. One results in some minor wound, while the other results in a potentially mortal wound - even though on paper they both did 4 hit points of damage. Four hit points of damage means nothing in terms of fictional positioning except relative to the hit points of the target.

This sort of system is generally known as 'Fortune in the Middle': proposition->fortune->interpreted results.

Where this system runs into problems is if somehow you can arrange to have the stakes of the action be assumed to be known by the participants before the fortune roll is made, a situation normally considered to be Fortune at the End. In systems built for Fortune at the End, the game rules arbitrate between two outcomes in some manner, with high stakes like the death of the opponent normally being quite difficult unless the attacker can achieve equally great advantage. But if you can arrange this or if it happens in the fictional positioning of a D&D game, then the abstract system comes apart because it will generate a result incompatible with the assumed stakes. Remember, the normal fortune attack roll does not know what the stakes are. So naturally, if you begin an attack check by setting the stakes, the fortune system will not be able to arbitrate between these stakes and decide what happens.

Falling is one common example of this. When a character falls it feels like we know the stakes before we roll. We already know that the player has fallen from a great height and to a very large extent the circumstances of the fall or we wouldn't be rolling for falling damage. So there is relatively little opportunity to narrate away that fact. When the abstract fortune system then deducts hit points from the character it frequently generates a result that doesn't feel right for the narrated fictional circumstance.

The knife at the throat example is another classic example. In this case, it again feels like we know the stakes before we roll - the throat is going to be cut. So when we ask the abstract fortune system to resolve this as an attack, it generates results that don't feel right for the stake we set. We are wanting a system in this case that tells us what the result of someone's throat being cut is, but the D&D rules don't do that. In no way did we plug into the system the situation. Of course it doesn't handle what we wanted, it was never designed for that.

D&D from the very start has always held as an exception to the normal combat rules that if the target is truly helpless to resist an attack that the normal combat rules don't apply. In 1e AD&D this wasn't even a fortune test. The stakes simply occurred, throat cut, because there was no reason why they shouldn't occur because the outcome in that case was not doubtful. 3e D&D codified this idea as the Coup De Grace rules. If the target was helpless, then a different fortune resolution system applied.

But this still doesn't address the 'throat to the neck' scenario, because under the D&D rules someone with a knife to their throat isn't helpless.

One of the most important things to note in this scenario is that the D&D rules have no way to generate the fictional positioning of the scene in the first place. That is to say, nothing in the D&D rules tests the proposition, "I [try to] put a knife to the target's throat." One of the most important things to realize then is that the proposition, "I put a knife to the throat [of a creature that is not helpless]" is an invalid proposition under the D&D rules. D&D has zero ways to handle that proposition and zero tests of propositions that result in the fictional state 'I have a knife to non-helpless target X's throat'. The stake that the player wants to set can't actually happen in the game, and if for some reason a DM does pass that proposition and use some sort of fortune test to indicate that fictional positioning has transpired, then the DM has erred and not the game.

We can imagine the sort of things that first have to happen before anything equivalent to this fictional positioning could occur. First, the PC would have to win some sort of grapple contest in a definitive manner, so that the target is in a state like 'pinned'. But the 'pinned' state is by the rules not a state of being helpless, therefore the 'pinned' character does not have a knife to the throat. Rather, the state described by the rules is much more like the fictional positioning sometimes seen in movies where the attacker is trying to push a knife into the throat or vitals of someone that they are grappling with, but the person is holding back the knife arm preventing the attack. In this contest, damage is equivalent to slowly pushing the knife into the targets throat while they resist vigorously, a state that will eventually but not immediately result in the targets death. But you might argue, what about the case where the knife blade is already held against the throat and the position of the defenders hands is already known. Well, again, this fictional positioning cannot result from the D&D rules, or at least, not without the cooperation of the defender who must agree to voluntarily be helpless.

The objection can then be made of course that this not realistic. There ought to be situations where an attacker can achieve the fictional positioning of a knife held to the victim's throat. And this objection is completely valid, but at the same time it's not at all clear what can be done about it. If you have some rules that allow a victim to be made helpless and thus bypassing the normal combat mechanics, then that is a very powerful form of attack and you can expect most combats to evolve toward that as a meta-strategy. It's easy to complain that the rules that don't let the normal hit points be bypassed generate stupid outcomes, but the problem is that any rules that do allow the normal hit points to be bypassed are also likely to generate stupid results. For example, if you had rules that allowed a grappler to make the target helpless, and then allowed the grappler to perform a coup de grace as an immediate action, then the upshot of those rules would be grapplers would be extraordinarily powerful. A PC classed grappler NPC would likely be devastating.

I find that players get a lot more thoughtful about combat house rules when they realize that the same rules that they are proposing will be applied to them. This has a tendency to give the players a large incentive to ensure that the rules are fair and balanced and make for a good gaming experience, and for that reason if no other, I would encourage DMs to resolve actions by NPCs with the same rules you use for PCs. If you have players that know that whatever good things that they accrue for themselves under the house rules, they'll never have to pay any price for those rules, then you'll end up in a situation where players have an incentive to play the metagame and try to agitate for and lawyer for house rules. "When the rules generate stupid outcomes, the rules are wrong" is a powerful and very disruptive tool in the hands of a power gamer if it is applied in a one sided fashion.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Is it time for me to float the "called shot" rules I've been toying with past everyone?

You certainly could, and I also at one time had "called shot" rules. The problem that I've always run into trying to design my own rules or evaluating someone else's, is that they don't play nice with the rest of D&D's rules. They have a tendency to bypass both AC and hit points, and in D&D that means they have a tendency to bypass plot armor. They make the game much more lethal, especially for high hit point characters, and they make death much more random which works against having long running campaigns.

That isn't to say that you haven't neatly resolved those problems, but so far I haven't seen it.
 

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