D&D 5E Attacking defenseless NPCs

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I think fairness and consistency in the application of the rules is an important goal for the DM.

That said, I think arguments about parity of their application between PCs and NPCs being paramount is legacy thinking that hasn't held water since D&D 3.Xe. So unless you're talking about that edition specifically, I can't take seriously any such argument for D&D 4e or D&D 5e.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
That said, since you won’t even stipulate that a 500 foot fall into a pool of lava constitutes a loss, we’re probably not going to reach an understanding on the subject.

But it is D&D we are playing, and so some of the characters falling off the bridge into the pool of lava may have rings of feather falling and rings of greater fire resistance, so that they land safely on the lava and can casually walk across it surface with only minimal hassle.

And while I agree that the DM decides how the rules apply, your notion of "checkmate" is something so not found in the rules I can't imagine what it is, and that makes it - and the situations its designed to solve - entirely different than the rope bridge scenario.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
Um, where I come from, "consequentialism" is the philosophic position that the morality of actions are judged by their consequences, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean here.

If, "basic consequentialism" to you mean, "things act like in the real world," I'm just going to have to say that I don't think we can make general statements.



And, if I'm playing Clark Kent? The only reason for me to stop, drop, and roll is to maintain my cover story so folks don't know I'm really Superman.

In D&D, I might stop, drop, and roll because, regardless of how many hit points of damage the fire does, and how many I have, that stuff *hurts*!

As Celebrim noted already - we are talking "fortune-in-the-middle" where the actual result is not determined at the time the dice are rolled. So, maybe I'm on fire, or maybe I have a blister, depending on how many points of damage were done, and how many I have. Dictating the stop-drop-and-roll beforehand isn't appropriate. If I am, in fact, consumed in flames and in danger of dying, then I'll drop and roll, but we need to check the dice first.



That's fine. The question is whether you are keeping "cause and effect" stuff that is actively contradicted by the game rules you are playing under, and whether you've made departures from the rules clear to the players beforehand.



If your rules are clear and consistent, then the players are empowered to make good, informed decisions. Making ad hoc applications of "real world" that are in defiance of the rules otherwise stated is not particularly empowering, as the players have to guess when you, the GM, are going to apply them. "Mother-may-I," is not empowering the player.

Yeah, I meant “causality” and typed “consequentialism.” +1 internet point for you.

The rest of your point seems to take issue with “things act like they do in the real world,” which isn’t a position I’m taking as an absolute truth in all circumstances. I couldn’t possibly be taking that position in a game that includes dragons and magic spells.

If the game world circumstances are that you are on fire, and here I mean the DM has said so, then you are on fire. It’s not maybe a blister. And there isn’t a need to check the dice. As a result of being in fire, you are taking damage. The rules in 4E (for example) say that you’re of fire until you pass a saving throw at the end of your turn. But they say nothing at all about immersing yourself in water to douse those flames before the end of your turn. You should be able to. The idea that you *cannot* do that because the rules don’t allow it is absurd to me. It’s not mother-May-I or a too strict adherence to realism to think that dumping water might put out a fire.

I don’t think I’m familiar with (or maybe don’t understand) whatever you’re arguing. I agree with the point about consistency being more empowering than ad hoc applications of realism, but I disagree with the proposition of abandoning realism completely for game rules. I also didn’t dictate stop-drop-and-roll or mandate any course of action. I took issue with the idea that stop-drop-And-roll *would not work* because no game rule says that it does. I am not arguing for “Mother-May-I” DM-ing and feel no obligation to defend positions I’m not espousing.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
But it is D&D we are playing, and so some of the characters falling off the bridge into the pool of lava may have rings of feather falling and rings of greater fire resistance, so that they land safely on the lava and can casually walk across it surface with only minimal hassle.

And while I agree that the DM decides how the rules apply, your notion of "checkmate" is something so not found in the rules I can't imagine what it is, and that makes it - and the situations its designed to solve - entirely different than the rope bridge scenario.

Man, come on. If I have a house rule about checkmate scenarios and I give you an example of one I consider to be a checkmate scenario, isn’t it a little bit unfair to argue that example doesn’t meet my criteria? I mean, “here’s an example of the sort of thing I’m talking about” and you respond “no it’s not.”

I feel like I’m probably an expert on my own darn opinion.
 

Celebrim

Legend
For once, I largely agree with Celebrim - not just on this, but on the entire post.

Will wonders ever cease?

I have some additional thoughts I'll add.

After which you go on to make some perfectly valid criticisms of my attempt to explain the issue.

Consider the TV show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In this show, vampires are killed by a stake through the heart. But Buffy almost never *leads* with an attempt to stake a vampire. She generally takes an extended period pummeling the vampire, and then stakes them as a finishing move. Basically, the stake is ineffective until the vampire has been pummeled enough.

We're pretty much on the same page here though, because although I didn't make myself as clear as you have here, I was considering the same fictional positioning when I equated attempting to put a knife to the throat of a character, with the common movie scene where two characters are in a grapple, and one is trying to plunge a dagger into some sensitive region of the other (the scene in Saving Private Ryan comes to mind). D&D can model this, but only by assuming that the character losing the struggle is continually losing hit points until the point where, having been reduced to 0 or less hit points, the knife plunges in for the mortal wound.

The problem/disconnect is that the player feels this state can be reached by just grabbing the target, and that's not the case.

That's what I was trying to say, said perhaps better than I said it.

Targets in D&D are... much more feisty than in the real world.

Well, at least the ones with more than a couple of hit points are. The fiction D&D supports is closer to the scene in Gladiator, where Maximus asks the Praetorian to strike true, and actually thwarts a sword held to the back of his head. Maximus is clearly PC classed.

Nothing in the combat rules tests that proposition. However, thinking about it this way, we could say that this isn't really a combat action. It is a *social interaction* action. Specifically, Intimidate - threatening someone with a sharp object is even one of the examples in the skill description!

I thought about that as well but decided not to bring it up because it complicates the situation. While you could intimidate a character by threatening them with a sharp object, so s far as I know, no version of D&D allows intimidate to be used to render the target helpless. And as a reasonable rule, the DC to convince a character become helpless shouldn't be far from the DC required convince a character to commit suicide via an intimidation check, and as such I would think it would be prohibitive for all but the most unbalanced situations.

D&D doesn't have hit locations, so "in the throat" is a bit that has no meaning in the combat system.

Agreed.
 

D1Tremere

Adventurer
I tend to run my games in more of a narrative and cinematic way, using mechanics to adjudicate situations where either the player or circumstance invoke them.
Given that you are describing a classic cinematic scene where the highly skilled character silently dispatches a sentry with a well timed shot, I would not bother with the mechanics except perhaps to determine if the character rolls a natural 1 or 20. So long as it is taking place outside of initiative and combat proper, I consider it narrative.
I guess it depends on your position. Is playing your game intended to feel like a simulation, or is it more of a movie?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
That said, I think arguments about parity of their application between PCs and NPCs being paramount is legacy thinking that hasn't held water since D&D 3.Xe.

I dunno if we have to worry about it being "paramount" in general. This is not about character advancement, or about classes, or about particular powers, or even a feat. We are talking, honestly, about a very basic setup - getting the drop on the opponent, and being able to attack before they realize you are there. A very basic tactic, used throughout history.

The logic being used to justify it in the first place as presented amounts to, "this just seems *reasonable* - it is how the real world works". That rationale should, by its own logic, apply to both PCs and NPCs. "This is how the real world works, but we won't follow that when it isn't in the PCs favor..." sounds kind of bogus.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Man, come on. If I have a house rule about checkmate scenarios and I give you an example of one I consider to be a checkmate scenario, isn’t it a little bit unfair to argue that example doesn’t meet my criteria? I mean, “here’s an example of the sort of thing I’m talking about” and you respond “no it’s not.”

I feel like I’m probably an expert on my own darn opinion.
So your example of a "checkmate scenario" is "falling 500 feet off a rope bridge into lava."

This is a situation entirely covered by the existing rules*. Which of those rules do you feel is inadequate to the situation, necessitating a special "checkmate" rule?

[size=-2]*Well, almost. Falling damage and damage to objects are covered, but the existing rules don't specify how much fire damage you take for being in lava. There are a couple of adventures with lava hazards, but the damage they deal varies from one adventure to the next. But that just means it's up to the DM to assign an appropriate damage level.[/size]
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The knife to the throat objection is one of the classic objections to the D&D rules and hit points specifically.
It is, but 1e, at least, wasn't /as/ susceptible to it - if creatures were "sleeping or otherwise helpless," I think the phrasing was, you could kill them at 1/round. No CdG or anything.

If the DM takes the knife-to-the-throat scenario as helplessness, it was taken care of.

But there's one huge, unspoken assumption in that scenario...

D&D's abstract hit point system depends on the stakes of an attack not being known until after the attack is made. Thus, a 4 hit point attack on a 40 hit point target is described in an entirely different way than an attack on a 4 hit point target. <snip Forge jargon>
That is to say, nothing in the D&D rules <resolves the action declaration> "I put a knife to the target's throat."
The assumption is that you can get a knife to the victim's throat without first either reducing it's hps to the point that said knife is a threat of near-certain death, or rendering it helpless.

First of all, in genre, a knife to the throat very rarely results in a protagonist or named baddie getting his throat cut, let alone fatally cut. So it's hard to count this as too big a failing of the system, for that reason. OTOH, in genre, very often, that sort of standoff will end with the character who has the drop being momentarily distracted and the victim getting away, with combat or pursuit ensuing from that point. Hps also don't do a bad job there - that's a perfectly fair way of narrating the threatened attack being resolved as a miss or some damage to the hostage and move on from there.

What D&D doesn't handle so well is the standoff scene, itself. The threat of combat isn't much of a motivator, since combat resolution in D&D is a pretty significant chunk of the game's fun potential. It could work with a low-hp, helpless victim the PCs care about, of course (but the players caring about an NPC is an up-hill battle in a lot of groups).

One system I recall handling such scenes way back when was Hero, I don't recall which game it was, probably Danger:International, but it introduced a 'covered' mechanic. You'd make an attack, and, if you hit, instead of resolving damage, declare the target "covered." Then you could make demands with the damage from the hit held in abeyance as your threat. The target or an ally - or unsuspecting interloper - could create a distraction that would end the covered standoff and the target wouldn't take the damage, combat or whatever could resume.

That /could/ work in D&D, in situations where the damage from the attack - like an assassination attempt, perhaps, or a regular attack if you're already low on hp - were a credible threat.

Of course, it may not be a standoff scene, but a denouement as a defeated foe is forced to wrap up the last dangling plot lines. (4e inadvertently addressed that in an off-hand way, when it expanded being dropped to 0 hps to say that the attacker could describe that you he liked - so it /could/ be unconsciousness, or surrender, or holding the defeated foe at sword-point, or whatever. But that implies that, if, you want to do the knife-to-the-throat thing, defeat the enemy , first.)
 
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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I dunno if we have to worry about it being "paramount" in general. This is not about character advancement, or about classes, or about particular powers, or even a feat. We are talking, honestly, about a very basic setup - getting the drop on the opponent, and being able to attack before they realize you are there. A very basic tactic, used throughout history.

The logic being used to justify it in the first place as presented amounts to, "this just seems *reasonable* - it is how the real world works". That rationale should, by its own logic, apply to both PCs and NPCs. "This is how the real world works, but we won't follow that when it isn't in the PCs favor..." sounds kind of bogus.

You won't ever catch me making a realism argument in D&D of any edition. What I will argue is that it's the DM's call on what mechanic to use to resolve uncertainty as to the outcome and I can make the case for either ability checks or attack rolls here (and have). While it's reasonable behavior in my opinion for players to treat a DM's ruling as precedent, I think it's a simple matter to point out that - in this case right here for reasons - the DM wants an ability check instead of an attack roll. Perhaps because the DM has structured this as an exploration challenge, not a combat challenge, and that the combat rules would be too cumbersome to create the play experience the DM is seeking to support in this moment. In another similar situation, the DM might instead use the combat rules to evoke a different play experience, and that's just fine.

But an argument that PC and NPC actions should always be resolved the same way? Nope. Not buying it. Not in D&D 4e or 5e anyway.
 

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