Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?

billd91 · Jul 21, 2019

Parmandur said:
There may well be a market for that, but it would have seriously cheesed off the existing PF fanbase beyond all hope, while still being a risk in terms of successfully attracting that new fan base. Both extremes seem fraught, but a middle approach seems deadly dangerous as well.

I doubt it would be a question of cheesing off PF fans. But there’s no way Paizo could market PF2 like that, not would they want to. It just associates them even more with IP and trademarks they don’t control. The last time they did that, it almost killed them.

Parmandur · Jul 21, 2019

billd91 said:
I doubt it would be a question of cheesing off PF fans. But there’s no way Paizo could market PF2 like that, not would they want to. It just associates them even more with IP and trademarks they don’t control. The last time they did that, it almost killed them.

No more than with PF1: OGL is fair game, innit?

CapnZapp · Jul 21, 2019

Parmandur said:
There may well be a market for that, but it would have seriously cheesed off the existing PF fanbase beyond all hope, while still being a risk in terms of successfully attracting that new fan base. Both extremes seem fraught, but a middle approach seems deadly dangerous as well.

The existing PF fanbase seems to become cheesed off no matter what Paizo does, but will likely try out the system no matter how loudly they complain unless they absolutely will not leave 3.x (in which case they're a lost cause regardless) so listening to them seems like a poor business decision.

Plus, even if only, say, 10% of 5E players try out the new game, that's likely a bigger market than getting stuck in the old ways.

CapnZapp · Jul 21, 2019

Zardnaar said:
It won't be Paizos 4E. If it flops it will be for a different reason, it's possible there's nothing Paizo can do to compete at least at the levels they want.

Though it would be interesting if you give your thoughts on the ideas of myself and others, instead of coming across as having decided ahead of time "nothing can be done"...?

CapnZapp · Jul 21, 2019

billd91 said:
I doubt it would be a question of cheesing off PF fans. But there’s no way Paizo could market PF2 like that, not would they want to. It just associates them even more with IP and trademarks they don’t control. The last time they did that, it almost killed them.

But that's the corporation speaking. The only reason to exist is to eat or be eaten.

I believe the fundamental mistake Paizo is doing is not realizing (or accepting) that there is only one 500 pound gorilla in the room.

They're clearly trying to carve out a market segment of their own. But this has always without exception led to obscure heartbreakery games collecting dust on shelves.

The only place where a Paizo can retain anywhere close to it's PF size is as a satellite to that 500 pound gorilla.

If Paizo were content to be a small operation run from Lisa Stevens garage they can go the 13th Age or Numenera or Dungeon Quest route, but they're clearly not.

Which means they ought to have swallowed their pride and resentment (no matter how justified) and positioned once more their game as something existing D&D gamers should try.

Even if the exact nature of why would differ: PF 1 because WotC went in another direction, PF 2 because WotC seems content to go in no direction.

Zardnaar · Jul 21, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Though it would be interesting if you give your thoughts on the ideas of myself and others, instead of coming across as having decided ahead of time "nothing can be done"...?

I said it's a possibility.

I don't know how it's gonna go but the circumstances are completely different.

For example we don't know Paizos financial position. If PF2 tanks plan B might be a 5E satellite.

If they go down that path though they're probably the next Kobold Press.

Parmandur · Jul 21, 2019

CapnZapp said:
The existing PF fanbase seems to become cheesed off no matter what Paizo does, but will likely try out the system no matter how loudly they complain unless they absolutely will not leave 3.x (in which case they're a lost cause regardless) so listening to them seems like a poor business decision.

Plus, even if only, say, 10% of 5E players try out the new game, that's likely a bigger market than getting stuck in the old ways.

Yes, relying on people who are adamant on sticking with 3.X for twenty years might be poor business: but up until now, that was their business entirely. Anybody who would want something more in the direction of 5E has probably adapted 5E by now, and getting 0.01% of the 5E player base is not guaranteed. It is possible they will lose their core fanbase, and fail to make a new fanbase. And in this way, PF2 could be another 4E: throwing away one group of fans, and failing to replace them.

CapnZapp · Jul 21, 2019

Parmandur said:
Yes, relying on people who are adamant on sticking with 3.X for twenty years might be poor business: but up until now, that was their business entirely. Anybody who would want something more in the direction of 5E has probably adapted 5E by now, and getting 0.01% of the 5E player base is not guaranteed. It is possible they will lose their core fanbase, and fail to make a new fanbase. And in this way, PF2 could be another 4E: throwing away one group of fans, and failing to replace them.

Absolutely. But the only message I see here is "a new edition at all is a mistake".

What I'm saying is, assuming there will be a new edition, positioning it as the natural evolution for 5E players looking for more crunch seems like a wise decision.

Wiser, that is, than creating a game that might go against some of the sensibilities 5E has gotten current players used to...

Parmandur · Jul 21, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Absolutely. But the only message I see here is "a new edition at all is a mistake".

What I'm saying is, assuming there will be a new edition, positioning it as the natural evolution for 5E players looking for more crunch seems like a wise decision.

Wiser, that is, than creating a game that might go against some of the sensibilities 5E has gotten current players used to...

Quite possibly, but that would still not be a guaranteed success, if it didn't hit it off with the new crowd. What they went with might be the worst of all worlds, ticking off the 3.X hardcore while not being very modern in sensibility.

I do, actually, think a new edition was a mistake on their part: I think they would have been better served by slowing down their publishing stream fornPF1, mostly just adventures for the subscribers, kept the game in print, and put out a new third RPG to sit along PF and SF that they could focus publishing energy on (superheroes, maybe).

Tony Vargas · Jul 21, 2019

CapnZapp said:
The existing PF fanbase ...will likely try out the system no matter how loudly they complain unless they absolutely will not leave 3.x

Weren't those committed 3.x fans the basis for even having PF, in the first place, though.

Plus, even if only, say, 10% of 5E players try out the new game, that's likely a bigger market than getting stuck in the old ways.

Now that sounds like angling to repeat 4e marketing blunders.

Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?

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